Russell Water Gardens and Kodama Koi Farm Pair Up /Merged Thread

[bekko]

New.... Well, there's this:
http://www.ippca.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1031

I'm so ashamed.

-s tev

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by bekko I'm so ashamed. -s tev

You should be

[MikeM]

It is interesting ... different perspectives. Particularly the post that seemed to justify rock-bottomed ponds on the basis that so many koi are killed during culling that kichi are using a double-standard. So what if it dies? It wasn't culled. ...The difference, of course, is that nobody spent money to buy the culled fish.

The basic problem is the koi. They are not a fish suitable for small ponds or watergardens, but even the pond mutts are so attractive that folks with small ponds and watergardens want a few. As long as folks have accurate information to make a choice, there is truth in the idea that the Wal-Mart special is better off in the rock pond than having been culled. My concern is with the folks who want a koi pond, not a watergarden, and end up buying what they did not intend because they did not know better. Perhaps they should have studied up more on their own, but so many thought their professional pond builder was the one-stop source of knowledge that made it easy for them. While I disagree with RWG's use of rocks in the "hybrid" pond, at least their marketing materials make clear it is not optimal for the koi. That is a mile ahead of the typical AquaScape guy asserting that the rocks make it better.

[PapaBear]

So now we're the aquatic equivalent of the PLO and Rocks are Pond Water Israelites??? I guess I'll have to start inspecting my Koi for bomb vests so they won't blow up any innocent rocks that might happen to fall in my pond

[schildkoi]

Quote: My concern is with the folks who want a koi pond, not a watergarden, and end up buying what they did not intend because they did not know better. Perhaps they should have studied up more on their own, but so many thought their professional pond builder was the one-stop source of knowledge that made it easy for them.

More to the point, its the "intentional misrepresentation" of their (rock bottomed pond builders) marketing materials. I did a series of threads on another board (that I can't get to anymore) picking apart those materials point by point. My particular favorite was the one about predetors and how raccoons couldn't swim and thus shallow ponds were safe. Now the kicker was that in that same literature, it showed a raccoon in the water! LOL

Steve

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi More to the point, its the "intentional misrepresentation" of their (rock bottomed pond builders) marketing materials. I did a series of threads on another board (that I can't get to anymore) picking apart those materials point by point. My particular favorite was the one about predetors and how raccoons couldn't swim and thus shallow ponds were safe. Now the kicker was that in that same literature, it showed a raccoon in the water! LOL Steve

ROFLMAO... While I am not a "Coon Hunter", I have friends that have/do. One of the hard fast rules among them is NEVER let your hunting dog go into the water after a Raccoon... Unless you want the Raccoon to drown your dog

[John Russell]

Hello all,

Thank you for the link to the IPPCA forum. As we can all see from reading the posts here on this forum, and then reading the posts on the other forum that there are many differences of opinion.

As you all know, I am trying to improve the R&G industry by adopting many of the philosophies I learn from all of you. I'm not trying to change the koi industry, but I am trying to improve the R&G industry with better products and higher levels of education and information. (I am trying to 'relax' hostilities within the koi industry though.)

The question in improving the R&G industry is: What is the BEST way to improve it? I know that many of you here simply want it to go away, or change 100% to your philosophies. In reality, that isn't going to happen. I know this, and you all know this. So what I am personally, and Russell Watergardens/Kodama Koi Farm is trying to do is find "common ground".

Without first agreeing on some sort of common ground - we can't move forward. Koi should cause relaxation - not friction.

I'm looking forward to meeting many of you in the next year, and I'm looking forward to the possibility of working with Mr. Childers in creating some basic filtration SSA guidlines for stocking levels that can be used in what ever type of pond built. Also, in working together we can come up with improvements on making koi safer in R&G ponds. I believe that Russell Watergardens has made tremendous improvements in that field, but we can always do more.

So what I am asking you all to help me with is to figure more and better ways to keep gravel clean in rock & gravel ponds. The disagreement so far among the two sides of the isle is that rock & gravel is a death sentence to koi. The common ground is "DIRTY" rock and gravel is definately a koi death sentence, and non-backflushable filters are definate koi death sentences. So, lets go to work on the common ground.

From all of your comments, I'm already tossing ideas around in my head on how to make a bottom drain for a R&G pond that won't clog with gravel. Again, that would be a step in the right direction. I'm also thinking of ideas of how to automate the backflushing of our filters, and automate the cleansing of the gravel in the pond for those who don't do it on their own. I invite all of you that may have any ideas to email me directly at john@russellwatergardens.com Steve, lets talk about this. Two brains are better than one, and many brains are better than two.

Working together is the key. Finding common ground is the foundation of real change. Flexibility, open mindedness, and testing new ideas and concepts coupled with documented data is the first place to start.

Thank you everyone for speaking so openly with me. I really do appreciate it.

Sincerely,
John Russell
President/CEO Russell Watergardens

[MysticKoi]

John,

From my perspective it still all boils down to "what is the optimum environment for koi". Would you agree that rock and gravel bottom ponds of any configuration are not "optimized" for koi keeping? If so, then the problem isn’t so much what customers are demanding, but rather the poor education offered to them. I know that people really do want to provide the best home possible for koi in their care. Basically, real education should come before the sale, and in my experience educated customers make better choices.

You are right though, R&G ponds are not going away. Why? Simply stated, new hobbyists are easily misled by the slick hype dished out by installers (not koi professionals) and the glossy imagery printed by those that market these ponds! I suspect that close to 100% of all R&G ponds installed are sold to first time pond owners. Many of these eventually get wise, and then build a proper koi pond. Odd that the opposite is not true, yes? Anyway, in my opinion, the big player in the R&G pond industry is not a pond equipment manufacturer, but rather a marketing company!

So, I suspect that if your strategy is to cut into the ADI market, you are off to a good start. Any improvement over the existing ADI configuration is a step in the right direction should your goal be market share. However, if part of your plan is to employ some of the same marketing strategies (i.e.- R&G ponds as a suitable alternative to an optimized koi pond), I think you are going to run into some resistance from the serious koi hobbyists. Basically, I can’t see any common ground on this issue, but am interested in hearing thoughts from others (I’m keeping an open mind).

Kind Regards,
Bill
Mystic Koi

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear So now we're the aquatic equivalent of the PLO and Rocks are Pond Water Israelites??? I guess I'll have to start inspecting my Koi for bomb vests so they won't blow up any innocent rocks that might happen to fall in my pond

Haha, thats funny!

[John Russell]

Thanks for the reply Bill.

Yes, we are cutting into ADI's market like no other company ever has. More and more of their top contractors and dealers are switching to Russell Watergardens every day.

All of us here at Russell Watergardens advise that any type of rock and gravel pond is not the "optimum" method for keeping koi - but koi can be kept in other types of ponds provided the owner is aware of the limitations and hazards. This is why our store concept featuring mutiple types of ponds - each with equipment lists and maintenance guidlines is so helpful.

For example, a Hybrid pond is a viable alternative to a standard rock & gravel pond for the keeping of koi. But a Hybid pond is not marketed, sold, or built as "optimum" for koi because the rocks may pose a danger to koi, gravel (if not kept clean) can become harmful to the koi with decaying organic matter and/or parasite/protozoa propagation, and aquatic plants can introduce parasites.

A small and/or shallow water garden isn't suitable for koi keeping unless a person enjoys feeding koi to the herons and raccoons.

The idea is to not only "tell" consumers the differences in pond types, but to "show" them the differences.

Optimum koi living conditions = no rock and gravel
Acceptable koi living conditions = rock and gravel with backflushable filtration systems, size/volume and depth requirements, specific maintenance requirements, and known limitations and hazards. (I know, this isn't acceptable to KB'ers - but this is acceptable to the majority of the public though)

Koi can, and do live in a wide variety of pond styles, but with some understanding of what is considered "optimum", and what is considered "less-than-optimum" and the advantages/disadvantages of each.

We can't stop the onslaught of Aquascape/Savio type mass-marketing-to-every-lawn-mowing-contractor out there. But we can go straight to the public and offer them a viable alternative that is a drastic improvement. What Russell Watergardens has done is improve the filtration systems, the pond's depth, the maintenance methods and schedule, and most important - providing the pond owner with factual information about the pond and filtration system's limitations - is improving the industry inch by inch as never done before.

Bill, you are 100% correct in what is considered "optimum" for koi raising/keeping. Rock & Gravel ponds are NOT always sold simply by slick marketing though. Some people simply prefer the look. They like the style of pond, they like to see fish of all types (including koi) swimming around in them. The fish are just part of the over-all "look" of the pond.

So yes, we need to battle the mass-marketing Aquascape/Savio types by educating the consumers about their limitations with regards to fish health. But a hard fact to believe is that rock & gravel ponds are not 100% the result of slick marketing. Some people simply prefer them for cosmetic reasons. So instead of trying to get rid of all rock & gravel ponds - we can all work together to make real change out there. The rock & gravel pond industry isn't going away - so lets simply improve it with better filtation systems, deeper pond designs, specific SSA requirements with fish loading, specific maintenance requirements - and information describing limitations and hazards. I can't do it alone. I need your help.

Working together and sharing ideas will go far at making change.

Sincerely,
John Russell
CEO Russell Watergardens