Using natural seawater for disease treatement.

[dizzyfish]

Quote: Originally Posted by l113892 Salted water for disease treatment- I don't know any of the advanced hobbyist that are using that treatment. What are you suggesting that salt does that is effective as a disease treatment?

Mike I wasn't trying to duck your question in my previous post. I'm attaching a picture of some pallets of Diamond Crystal Solar salt that were outside one of the greenhouses at Nisei Koi Farm. (You can see the blue bags on the right of photo where the plastic is torn off) Mat or Ross one was telling me they use this as a first treatment for certain parasites when the koi come out of the mud ponds IIRC. I can't remember which one specifically now, but they obviously feel it has some value. Doc Johnson makes it sound like salt is the miracle cure for many of the common ciliated parasites including:............ Ichthyophthirius multifilis (Ich), Chilodinella, Costia, Scyphidia, Epistylis, and Trichodina (although some Japanese forms require up to .6% salt). Is the good doctor out of date or simply full of it, I don't know.

I do know that Mark Bodycott told me he was treating his new shipment of koi with salt. I also know that I made positive identification of Trichodina, Costia, and Ich this past year. I was able to kill all three with salt to .5%. I confirmed this with repeated microscope examination throughout and after the treatment. Are you suggesting that salt is ineffective against these three parasites? I don't claim to have all the answers. I am trying to learn and that is why I ask so many questions. I hope I have answered yours. I would like to hear from anyone that feels salt is totally worthless to kill parasites. I have no personal knowledge as to its effectiveness against sleeping sickness.
Regards,
Mitch

[l113892]

Mitch-

I guess you are suggesting the use of salt to kill parasites- not as a disease treatment. Many years ago, most all the high end hobbyists that I respect suggested that salt was no longer effective to kill parasites. Prior to that input, I used salt as a shotgun treatment along with dimilin and fluke tabs. I threw the shotgun away and I don't get my information from Dr. J anymore. I don't have any salt in the garage except maybe for the walkway if we get some snow or ice. If I was a dealer, I would have salt in the shop- I know most of them do to help ease the transition after the travel in a shipping bag. I think there are different approaches- dealer versus hobbyist. As a hobbyist, there is a tradeoff with anything I put in my water which includes salt so I am careful to consider what the consequences may be. On a good year, the only thing that goes in my pond is source water, ST and maybe some Lymnozyme and Koi Clay.

[HEADACHE6]

It's like i'm back in the Van !

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by l113892 Mitch- I guess you are suggesting the use of salt to kill parasites- not as a disease treatment. Many years ago, most all the high end hobbyists that I respect suggested that salt was no longer effective to kill parasites. Prior to that input, I used salt as a shotgun treatment along with dimilin and fluke tabs. I threw the shotgun away and I don't get my information from Dr. J anymore. I don't have any salt in the garage except maybe for the walkway if we get some snow or ice. If I was a dealer, I would have salt in the shop- I know most of them do to help ease the transition after the travel in a shipping bag. I think there are different approaches- dealer versus hobbyist. As a hobbyist, there is a tradeoff with anything I put in my water which includes salt so I am careful to consider what the consequences may be. On a good year, the only thing that goes in my pond is source water, ST and maybe some Lymnozyme and Koi Clay.

I agree with Mike, salt on the whole should not be used for treatment. We do use it when our fish come in and sometimes we use it in conjuntion with OTC. On the whole it is not really that effective on parasite or disease treatment.

Russ

[dizzyfish]

Okey dokey lets turn a long BS session into a koi related learning experince. Forget vague generalizations. Which specific ciliated parasites are you saying salt is no longer effective on. Do you agree that scraping and using a microscope to make an exact determination is the best approach before treating with anything? I grant you the fact that flukes are best treated with something else as well as certain others parasites, but in my humble experience salt does still work very well on certain things. I have named Ich, Costia, Trichodina, as three that I feel it does still work on, although Japanese Trich may take a higher concentation. I can also testify in a large pond it is not only cost effective, but also very easy to measure exact doses. It's a fairly safe first treatment if you add slowly enough for the biological filter to adapt. So what other than stuff like anchor worms and argus have you found it to be ineffective on?
Thanks,
Mitch

PS
Troy feel free to join right in. There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat.

[l113892]

I'm not aware that I've ever had Ich or seen Ich on koi. Of course I have seen it on my aqarium fish. I found salt to be effective on Chilodonella. I found salt to be ineffective on Trichodina. I found PP to be effective on both Costia and Trichodina. I've heard that Formalin is effective on Costia. There is the extent of my knowledge as it relates to salt and killing parasites.

[dizzyfish]

The less experience one has with parasites the better. However at the retail pet store level we see our fair share. Goldfish have more problems with Ich than koi, especially large koi seem to resist it pretty well. Body flukes are can sometimes be found on goldfish and koi, especially feeder goldfish which get cheap handling. Anchor worms and fish lice (Argulus) come in on fancy goldfish from Hong Kong from time to time, and certainly on koi from certain places. It's pretty easy to get rid of the big stuff with Dimilin and tweezers.

We don't see these much but, I agree potassium permanganate works on Costia and Trichodina, and I have been able to kill flukes with it as well, but it can be dangerous to use. You may have had Japanese Trichodina which is more resistant to salt, but it's only a guess. Formalin is hard on biological filters. Certainly any of this stuff is easier to treat in smaller controlled systems than large ponds. I believe Mat said treating is useless in the large mud ponds due to high organic content and you just have to wait until you bring them inside. It sure would be nice if there was one magic bullet that killed all the nasties and I hate to hear salt is less and less effective, but perhaps still worth a try for certains things. Certainly newbies need to be careful treating with some of this stuff. I think Lee has a pretty good size pond and it may be difficult and expensive to get certain chemicals or drugs there, and I don't know who is advising him, but I do know who isn't.
Regards,
Mitch

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by dizzyfish Okey dokey lets turn a long BS session into a koi related learning experince. Forget vague generalizations. Which specific ciliated parasites are you saying salt is no longer effective on. Do you agree that scraping and using a microscope to make an exact determination is the best approach before treating with anything? I grant you the fact that flukes are best treated with something else as well as certain others parasites, but in my humble experience salt does still work very well on certain things. I have named Ich, Costia, Trichodina, as three that I feel it does still work on, although Japanese Trich may take a higher concentation. I can also testify in a large pond it is not only cost effective, but also very easy to measure exact doses. It's a fairly safe first treatment if you add slowly enough for the biological filter to adapt. So what other than stuff like anchor worms and argus have you found it to be ineffective on? Thanks, Mitch PS Troy feel free to join right in. There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat.

Hi Mitch,

I am not interested in making a session out of what I think salt should be used for. I find that with salt, it is never 100% effective on anything which can lead to reinfestations. We use specific meds for what parasites we have as we feel it works best.

Russ

[dizzyfish]

Russ,
The problem is that some of the books that are out there do recommend salt. I certainly didn't know people felt it was so ineffective these days. This is probably one of the best places for a newbie or an old pro can come for advice so I think it is helpful if people share experiences in cases where it did or didn't work. How else do we learn?
Mitch

PS
I'm going to take the wet lab in Orlando unless it fills up before the check gets there.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by dizzyfish Russ, The problem is that some of the books that are out there do recommend salt. I certainly didn't know people felt it was so ineffective these days. This is probably one of the best places for a newbie or an old pro can come for advice so I think it is helpful if people share experiences in cases where it did or didn't work. How else do we learn? Mitch

Very good point Mitch. When I first got into Koi, the Doc Johnson book was hailed as the bible of Koi health. I don't believe it is anymore as there is much better info out there now. So, what do you do? this book preaches salt use for just about everything but, like anything, you do the best you can and keep learning and in turn you keep updating your customers with the new information.
We have people that come into our store that say they have been told that it is good to ALWAYS have some level of salt in their pond. The odd thing is that they will put salt in their ponds and they don't know why. The levels of salt that they are using are only going to help build strains of bacteria and parasites that will become immune to the affects of salt. Then what do you do?
We, as a whole, do not teach our customers to use salt unless it is absolutely neccessary.

Russ