Doitsu Lemon Kumonryu- Rare?

[Regenmeneer]

By the way, I haven't seen any Benikoki in some two years. Wondering if they are still bred?

[JasPR]

good point! As lovely as that 'black beauty ' is, I doubt that breeder could reproduce that fish again if his life depended on it! I think these fish are neat but no one should pay too much for a one of a kind type hybrid. They are fun fish and also usually not long lasting fish- meaning they will not hold their look , long term.

One of the ZNA guys in Japan has a great philosophy about this-

He says, You might pay a higher price for a good line bred gosanke. But you then have many years to enjoy that fish as they tend to 'hold their beauty' a long time. So the ' daily viewing rate' is quite low when you amortize it.
But a non-lasting fish of questionable genetics , even if it is less money initially, is a bad investment as it's 'viewing life' is very short. Therefore the daily viewing rate is quite high.

Interesting way of looking at it! Best, JR

[PapaBear]

A great example of 3 fine atypical specimens we WISH could be repeated. The ability to repeat a desired result from different parent stock is part of the scientific genetic equation. An experiment must be repeatable before a theory can be established as fact. Unique Koi have value in their uniqueness if they are attractive, but don't have the ability to establish greater value in the marketplace because they are only here for a short time.

[JasPR]

Good Morning Larry!

No doubt.
Many beginners who are just learning the names of many of the varieties don't realize yet that certain varieties of even established fish types don't have a very long 'age of beauty'. Ginrin,doitsu,certain metallic hikari etc. all look great as youngsters. But like an appealing puppy, that phase is short lived and soon the 'puppy' look gives rise to what the beast will look like most of the rest of it's life. So ginrin fades in most specimens and luster declines in the metallic and doitsu white is never as pristine as in tosai/nisai over their lifetimes. That is why a super five year old adult specimen is valuable - It is rare.
In the case of these crosses, the odds are really poor that an adult will look as good as the early peak appearance. And certainly they can be breeders as they will throw of Heintz catsup - 57 varieties! JR

[dizzyfish]

What's the difference between Benikoki and Beni kumonru? I have definitely seen several of the latter in the past year.
Mitch

[JasPR]

Good morning Mitch. You, as a marine fish guy would probably be most comfortable with scientific names. And I'm sure you cringe when you enter a fish store and see things like 'lollypop percula' on the tank price listing!

Koi have both descriptive names and artistic/poetic names. But they also have commercial names.
The evolution of kumonryu is a long story for another time, but basically the name was liberally applied to almost any fish that arose from a crossed of karasu goi types and doitsu fish and was black and white . Then red was added ( doitsu kohakus are the lastest addition). These are all NON metallic fish to this point. And then it was made metallic and gave rise to kokuryu clan and the wheels really came off the bus from there! The latest 'wandering off the reservation came in the form of a kinda metallic showa/goshiki/kujaku!! - it was pure kawarimomo. But since a few did very well in koi shows, a new trade name was needed and so Benikoki was born---

JR

[dizzyfish]

For what it's worth. I just pulled this photo off of Inland Koi's web site. I believe he had two very similar that were in the October harvest. So someone is still breeding these and they appear to sell very quickly. Don't have the foggiest as to how they hold up, but it looks interesting now.
Mitch

PS I'm assuming you might be able to produce fish something like this by crossing a Doitsu Kohaku and a Kikokuryu. What do you think?

[Bern]

Quote: Originally Posted by dizzyfish What's the difference between Benikoki and Beni kumonru? I have definitely seen several of the latter in the past year. Mitch

I was told the Benikoki has matsuba scales. The specimen I saw at the time certainly had them. But I have seen pictures of supposed other Benikoki where that distinction wasn't apparent.

rgds Bern

[dizzyfish]

Thanks Bern. I guess I've never seen any pictures of a koi they were calling Benikoki.

[Regenmeneer]

Benikoki look a lot like Kikokuryo. But they came from an effort to create GinRin Goshiki Showa. Kinsuien came across a Kawarimono that looked very much like a cross between Doitsu Sanshoku and doitsu Goshiki. He crossed it with a female Goshiki, which resulted in the Benikoki.