Doitsu Lemon Kumonryu- Rare?

[dick benbow]

my best quess is the lot in the first photo is heisei (metalic sanke) that the yellow will become more orange with age. I have seen lemon kumonryu but they were bred back to shusui and the yellow was actually poor orange and became spotty as they aged

second photo looks to Me to be douitsu kujacku.....

[MikeM]

Bern: I left out the "not". LOL. Kind of changes the meaning! I'll change it.

Definitely NOT Kumonryu.

[KoiCop]

I'd class them as 'bait' and price them accordingly. Don

[John F]

The breeder knows for sure, but my bet is Kin Kiryu, or some form of Kikokuryu for sure.... and I doubt that they are Yamato. It is possible to get yellow metallic Sanke Doitsu (YamatoNishiki) for sure, but I don't think these are from Sanke bloodlines. It is true that yellow Yamato , will most likely turn orange, but true red is doubtful. Yamato are usually some form of orange when young, if they are going to turn red. Now fed certain color enhancers, maybe they could turn red, but I doubt it. True red outside of Yamato is a tough color to achieve. Wagoi Showa are the only fish I know of that can go from yellow to red as they mature. I know of no Doitsu fish that can or does do this however.

As for the yellow as adult Doistu (Kin Kiryu/Kikokuryu), I don't know about those fish, but come spring I will show you a few mature Kin Kiryu that are pure yellow when I pull the ponds.
John

[JasPR]

Those are mutts- kinda like a cocker-poo shepard! There is no such thing as a lemon kumonryu and certainly not metallic! These are cross breeds and you can see ki doitsu hariwake ( or matsuba) and/or doitsu kujaku in them.

If you want to ID a doitsu kujaku, look for the metallic white/silver base. Then the pattern, and on doitsu specificially, the normal black ticking on the scales is of course- on the row of doitsu scales- without it, it is hariwake.

No one should pay more than $15 each for these fish. Is it $175 for the group?
JR

[JasPR]

You know, I went back to look at these as I just glanced the first time. You might be looking at really bad Yamatonishiki /hariwake crosses? Or simple gin or kinsui mixes with yamato- mutts still the same.

[Regenmeneer]

Quote: Originally Posted by lilhelper Ah.....ok, I get it now. but I dont see resemblance in it to recognize ochiba blood.

A friend of mine bought one as Tosai, and is now Nisai. I'll try to find some pictures to show you. The "Cha" is more of a yellow/lighter color, as seen on some Wagoi Ochiba Shigure. The ground color becomes a lavender metallic.

[John F]

I would like to know at what point in the development of a variety it crosses over from being a mutt to a true variety? Who decides this? I have news for you, it is not a person or even a group of people. It is genetics!

So, every koi that was bred beyond wagoi/ magoi mutations are all mutts? What about a Shusui...a mutt? Well yes, in certain terms.I could go on and on, but I know it is fruitless. It depends on who you talk to I guess.It amazes me, how, and especially by whom "Nishikigoi" are defined. I guess every breed of dog beyond the first canine decendant are mutts as well. How does one go about developing a new variety? I wish some of you non-breeder book worms could fill me in. I am new at this and would appreciate any insight. Is there somewhere I can purchase the rule book? This is all so confusing.

[MikeM]

JR, I think you're wrong. There's enough shine for $25 each.

JohnF: The genetics of carp are terribly complex, but like purebred dogs or cats or horses, there are certain traits that should be present to be considered a particular breed. These are usually not too difficult to identify, but it gets very confusing among the metallics because breeders trying to create new varieties so often assign names before there is much stability. Metallics also present a challenge because the mass market outlets want shiny, sparkling koi... metallics and ginrin sell. But, they also want a wide variety. A tank of soft yellow Yamabuki will not produce the return of a tank filled with a mix of colors, splotches and sparkling shine. The typical consumer just wants a lot of color and splash at the time of purchase. So, breeders fill the consumers' desires by crossing all sorts of metallics together, creating a real hodge podge ....which will sell quickly at 7" for $14.95 at the local pet shop. Then the fellow who bought a pair is given a booklet on koi, he learns there are different recognized varieties and he wants to know which he has. The pet shop clerk will give a name or two, and everyone goes home happy... and misinformed. But, it's OK, because the guy knows that when the fish grow up they'll be worth thousands of dollars.

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Those are mutts- kinda like a cocker-poo shepard! There is no such thing as a lemon kumonryu and certainly not metallic! These are cross breeds and you can see ki doitsu hariwake ( or matsuba) and/or doitsu kujaku in them. If you want to ID a doitsu kujaku, look for the metallic white/silver base. Then the pattern, and on doitsu specificially, the normal black ticking on the scales is of course- on the row of doitsu scales- without it, it is hariwake. No one should pay more than $15 each for these fish. Is it $175 for the group? JR

nope, $175 to $200 each. I would never pay that much