Doitsu Lemon Kumonryu- Rare?

[JasPR]

John F, The standards for the established breeds are set in Japan by the breeders and by the ZNA.
Koi are bred systematically, from base color, dorsal pattern and then addition of traits ( doitsu, metallic,gin rin etc).

Koi are bred both by line breeding and by crosses.

The mutts are the experimental unstable breedings. Since all breedings are somewhat unstable, talanted culling is also required to produce the standard.

Does that clear things up for you?

JR

[JasPR]

I'm sure John F is confused and quite annoyed right now ( sorry John!) so please let me continue to clear up some confusion in his mind certainly and maybe some others--
If we keep the dog analogy going, the American Kennel Club Association is the final word on dog breeds. And the listing of pedigree dogs in the AKCA is pretty fixed for the last 75 years. There are 'new' breeds on ' deck' for those baseball fans, but they will need to be documented for many years before official entry. So Jack Russell terriers, for instance, are standardized and have breeding records but held at the door of official recognition for years now.
Koi genetics is way more complicated than dog genetics. And koi are still not
breeding as true as pedigree dogs. This is why many spawns are cut down to a small percentage of 'keepers' in all but the single colored varieties.
In recent years, third tier breeders have crossed a LOT of varieties in an effort to come up with the 'next' bred of nishikigoi. A lot of effort has been spent on kumonryu crosses with other varieties in hopes of creating a new look. Most of this stuff is pure junk but the export business eats it up! And the ponders in the west pay stupid prices for simple crosses and odd ball results. Honestly you can create this kinda look at home with random breedings if you cull right.
Recently a third tier breeder , working with goshiki crosses has produced a metallic beast that is being pushed as a kumonryu/kokuryo look. It is unbelievable, but US dealers are flocking to buy these one time crosses. It can be fun and a 'unique' varieties can be produced, but please- do not pay too much for these novelty fish- they are not real breeds. Just fun fish.

JR ( book learned koi expert)

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR I'm sure John F is confused and quite annoyed right now ( sorry John!) so please let me continue to clear up some confusion in his mind certainly and maybe some others-- If we keep the dog analogy going, the American Kennel Club Association is the final word on dog breeds. And the listing of pedigree dogs in the AKCA is pretty fixed for the last 75 years. There are 'new' breeds on ' deck' for those baseball fans, but they will need to be documented for many years before official entry. So Jack Russell terriers, for instance, are standardized and have breeding records but held at the door of official recognition for years now. Koi genetics is way more complicated than dog genetics. And koi are still not bleeding as true as pedigree dogs. This is why many spawns are cut down to a small percentage of 'keepers' in all but the single colored varieties. In recent years, third tier breeders have crossed a LOT of varieties in an effort to come up with the 'next' bred of nishikigoi. A lot of effort has been spent on kumonryu crosses with other varieties in hopes of creating a new look. Most of this stuff is pure junk but the export business eats it up! And the ponders in the west pay stupid prices for simple crosses and odd ball results. Honestly you can create this kinda look at home with random breedings if you cull right. Recently a third tier breeder , working with goshiki crosses has produced a metallic beast that is being pushed as a kumonryu/kokuryo look. It is unbelievable, but US dealers are flocking to buy these one time crosses. It can be fun and a 'unique' varieties can be produced, but please- do not pay too much for these novelty fish- they are not real breeds. Just fun fish. JR ( book learned koi expert)

Then you have a unique breed, right? of course its not stable.

[JasPR]

well yes and no. I mean - right, on one level, and 'no' on another. I think we sometimes confuse ourselves with the 'route taken' to MAKE a variety and then how a variety is bred from that point on.
John F mentioned shusui. Once upon a time, shusui was created from an asagi and a doitsu food carp. But today that is NOT how shusui are made.

In addition, many varieties that ONCE were made one way are now made a different way! Ochiba being a prime example of that.

But today there are still outright crosses of two very different varieties ( resulting in INTERESTING mutts) that are meant to be one of a kind knock offs for western sales. These are not 'serious nishikigoi' in Japan. But they pay the bills! This is also NOT to say that someday, something meaningful will not arise from these crosses- just maybe not in our life times!
You can usually tell if the new fish is the 'Emporer with no clothing' by looking at the rational for the cross- does the cross link with a systematic and logical extention of existing progression in nishikigoi breeding - meaning, does the fish cross attempt to establish a trait that is workable into an existing breed or is it a roll of the dice meant to create a general hybrid variety for general sales.

JR

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR This is also NOT to say that someday, something meaningful will not arise from these crosses- just maybe not in our life times! JR

Not true!
the hobby of koi has only been seriously around for at least 60-70 years.
I mean this by, 99 % of the varieties that exist now, did not 100 years ago.
What makes you think in another 50-70 years things aren't different?

[JasPR]

The gene pool is now established. The progression from black and white gene is established, the four patterns are established and the integration of scale and skin type into each of those catagories is established. So unless a mutation occurs, the same rate of expansion over the next 70 years compared to the last 70 years is not possible. JR

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR The gene pool is now established. The progression from black and white gene is established, the four patterns are established and the integration of scale and skin type into each of those catagories is established. So unless a mutation occurs, the same rate of expansion over the next 70 years compared to the last 70 years is not possible. JR

Maybe, but the fact is we can expect a whole lot more than what is now.

[John F]

I'm not confused my friend.
I agree with this much for sure............ ( book learned koi expert)

My main point is Genetics are the only true way koi are duplicated, improved upon, or manipulated. Stability in duplicating looks, patterns etc. are what dicatate a variety, and it is up to the individual to decide what he/she likes. Granted ZNA has the biggest influence throughout the world on what exactly is accepted in "their" standards, but that doesn't make everything else less beautiful to the eye of an individual, nor does it make it worthless. Then at this point folks like yourself here in America decide whether they are good or not? How many Koi have you bred? I know quite a few breeders that disagree with this frame of thinking, and it is just a shame that these forums try and push these types of thoughts.

Everyone talks about the value/worth of these fish, well, the costs to produce these fish are basically the same... quality or not. Granted those that do produce the quality usually do spend more $$ to a degreee, but the years of blood sweat and tears are virtually the same.
If this frame of thought always existed, we would only have Kohaku.

The value of any given fish is determined not only by ZNA standards but business standards as well. The folks that are succesful at this endeavor have the best combination of quality fish in a welll run business. Neither can exists without the other.
Is a junk fish worth $100?...is a GC worth $350,000.00? You would most likely say the junk is worthless, and the GC is priceless..right? Not I. Even if I were wealthy, there is no fish in this world worth 350K IMHO, and I breed and sell them for a living. I know you have some very good fish...are they all Gc's? If not why bother having anything less?
John

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by John F I'm not confused my friend. I agree with this much for sure............ ( book learned koi expert) My main point is Genetics are the only true way koi are duplicated, improved upon, or manipulated. Stability in duplicating looks, patterns etc. are what dicatate a variety, and it is up to the individual to decide what he/she likes. Granted ZNA has the biggest influence throughout the world on what exactly is accepted in "their" standards, but that doesn't make everything else less beautiful to the eye of an individual, nor does it make it worthless. Then at this point folks like yourself here in America decide whether they are good or not? How many Koi have you bred? I know quite a few breeders that disagree with this frame of thinking, and it is just a shame that these forums try and push these types of thoughts. Everyone talks about the value/worth of these fish, well, the costs to produce these fish are basically the same... quality or not. Granted those that do produce the quality usually do spend more $$ to a degreee, but the years of blood sweat and tears are virtually the same. If this frame of thought always existed, we would only have Kohaku. The value of any given fish is determined not only by ZNA standards but business standards as well. The folks that are succesful at this endeavor have the best combination of quality fish in a welll run business. Neither can exists without the other. Is a junk fish worth $100?...is a GC worth $350,000.00? You would most likely say the junk is worthless, and the GC is priceless..right? Not I. Even if I were wealthy, there is no fish in this world worth 350K IMHO, and I breed and sell them for a living. I know you have some very good fish...are they all Gc's? If not why bother having anything less? John

Nicely done my friend.

[JasPR]

John , I feel your pain.

It is not about how many fish I have bred. It is about what I've learned from two and three generation high end Japanese breeders in my 16 years of going to see them.
A guy breeding his pets in the backyard for ten years , knows one thing- what his pet's produce. I hardly consider than enlightened? I'll take my 'book learning' and my association with some of the best breeders in the world over the backyard spawning every time.

But enough stone throwing- here are the facts:

Koi are priced two ways, based on the lineage they represent OR based on rarity. But this is within the context of a greater breeding system. Individual breeds may not breed true but the traits that make up known nishikgoi breeds are very well established and the standards are re-enforced by ZNA. ONLY expectional specimens can escape these realities.
I'm sure the most popular koi in America is either the ginrin or the chagoi/ochiba. Yet in Japan they are quite cheap and the sanke is probably the most valuable fish. So popularity is not the mechanism for pricing. It is the level of difficulty or what the odds of producing the final product are- a perfect sanke is a very very rare beast. A perfect ochiba ain't no big deal. And as the price rises, they can simply make a lot more ochiba, once again bringing the price down. But a great sanke is a thing of nature and genius, and the odds of perfection are small. Even when producing thousands of fry from very expensive parent fish.

You should know that there are breeders in Japan that work very hard to produce what turns out to be low grade fish. You can buy these fish for between $7-$50 each. I'm sure these guys work as hard as Toshio Sakai does when harvesting fish- but the fish are near worthless. If sweat equity translated into $$$ then all of Niigata would be rich.
JR