Doitsu Lemon Kumonryu- Rare?

[JasPR]

Amen Larry! I especially like your reference to one of my heros, Alan Greenspan. Right on, right on, right on.

There is a great book ( I think I have it in my library?) about the great tulip market that rose and then crashed in Holland a century ago. In fact, a half dozen rare black tulip bulbs were the value of a prime location home in holland! But soon the model crashed as supply outstripped demand and since, in the end, they were only flowers, the bottom fell out of that market and the entire system crashed- along with many lives. This is classic supply and demand model but also the mania that is associated with rarity. Ebay figured that out a long time ago!

Most longfins can be made over and over with very little culling required. Why on earth anyone would pay over $50 for a longfin eludes me? Longfins ARE the tulip model all over again. Junk fish for nishikigoi prices.

But nature has capped the supply on really good gosanke. Kohaku being the easiest of the three to produce. In this case 'rarity' is very real. With the perfect specimen being priced at what ever the traffic will bear. In this genetic roulette wheel, you have size , shape, skin type, color cell quality and quantity, sex, shine/luster, and lack of any environmental damage to work on- a perfect seven year old is therefore a very rare thing. And unlike black tulips and black longfins, there is no way to mass produce these perfect gosanke.

JR

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR ...There is a great book ( I think I have it in my library?) about the great tulip market that rose and then crashed in Holland a century ago. In fact, a half dozen rare black tulip bulbs were the value of a prime location home in holland! But soon the model crashed as supply outstripped demand and since, in the end, they were only flowers, the bottom fell out of that market and the entire system crashed- along with many lives. This is classic supply and demand model but also the mania that is associated with rarity. Ebay figured that out a long time ago!...JR

We think too much alike . Tulips and Aluminum (circa 1900) were the other two examples I thought about using, but too many are too young to make the connection Hard to believe that 100 years ago aluminum was only used for fine jewelry and the most expensive tea services because it was so "rare and unique" .

[John F]

Everything you say is true, however my breeding is far from backyard pet breeding, and I know a few other American breeders as well that breed with the same goals in mind. I am not replying in my defense, but in the defense of the hobby here in America. I have nothing to prove to anyone but myself. I do not intend on making this thread about me. I am not as Koi Kichi as most, that is well known, and have my own personal goals. I could have gone out and purchased the top bloodlines and got a real headstart on all of this, but that is not how I operate. I wanted to know and EXPERIENCE what was truly involved with how the Japanese developed these fish. Does that mean that breeders that start with these high end broodstock have taken shortcuts? Not by a long shot. You still have to know what you are doing, and there is much involved in producing these higher end fish for sure. As I always say, it takes more than one lifetime, and I doubt any one geneation of breeder achieve their goals in their lifetime.

It is also funny how the academic folks associated with this hobby (from outside breeding looking in) put all of this science and mystique into the equation. True, it is all true, and the science and genetics are the heart and soul of breeding Nishikigoi. However, there are very few Japanese breeders that could carry on a scientific conversation about genetics. Sure, they can say the same things in basic terms and there methods would show the science, but MOST of them could not tell you with scientific facts. As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that a larger PERCENTAGE of the top end American breeders know more of the science than most Japanese breeders. The ONLY thing the Japanese have over these breeders is a head start.
There is always all this mystique/magic put on the Japanese methods, magic water and mud, bloodlines and so on. In reality, they are fish farmers plain and simple. Yes, there is some science and truth to what is in their water and mud as compared to ours in this country, and yes, there is no doubt they produce the best fish. This was accomplished with time primarily, not direct science. The American breeders do not equal but have come further in a MUCH shorter time. Sure, they started with bloodlines develop over time by the Japanese, but give credit where credit is due. Don't get me wrong, I do not want to imply or belittle the Japanese. Far from it. They deserve all the credit they get, as they did develop these magnificant fish. What I do not like is how the American breeders are belittled, as if to say they don't have the capabilties of ever reaching Japanese standards. First of all, they may not want the same standards and only time will tell.

A few months ago I was culling with Mr Suda and got a chance over a four day period to discuss many things with him. One of the things we discussed was bloodlines. Basically put, he said as far as breeding goes "pretty fish to pretty fish". Of coarse we all know there is a little more to it than that, but the main point he made was to say that the whole "bloodline" thing is blown way out of proprotion. American Purists have put all the fancy adlectives and hype into this hobby here. It reminds me of the wine industry and the art world.
Yes, bloodlines and genetics are related but a little different. Bloodlines in my interpretation relates to breeders individual stock not so much a direct genetics issue as the the whole of Nishikigoi. He basically said that most of the purer "bloodlines" are gone as most breeders have swaped broodstock back and forth over the years.

Interuption:
JUST IN OFF THE PRESS

I see you replied with this statement while I was writing this reply:
" Most longfins can be made over and over with very little culling required."
Well my friend you could not be more wrong. Where did you gets these facts? Whatever book this came from was surely written by another elaquant yet inexperienced writer and I don't care what name you drop. Breeding Longfins is every bit as complicated if not more so. They cannot be easily "cloned". They are way too early in developmental stages to get easy consistancy in offspring! I am afraid your lack of experience just outdid your academics big time. You obviously know little about breeding Longfins. Any breeder of Longfin would absolutely disagree with this statement and I can say this with the utmost of confidence. This is not a personal attack towards you, but more a defensive of eliminating a very false statement.

Anyway, I am rambling now, and I cannot compete with your writing skills. That statement above totally blew my train of thought, so I will pick this up at a later time. You are definately one fantastic writer for sure. You should write books yourself. I really need to meet you one day because I am sure we would be closer in our thinking than is obvious through these postings. My writing communication skills suck.

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Why on earth anyone would pay over $50 for a longfin eludes me? Longfins ARE the tulip model all over again. Junk fish for nishikigoi prices. JR

I think that's the whole point, but just because it eludes you does not mean it can be ignored as an important economic factor. Ultimately, there will be more people who would rather buy a pretty ornamental fish than one that satisfies some distant organization's standards, whether that's "right" or "wrong."

I, too, have learned a lot from your posts and hope to continue to do so. I want to learn about the hobby and its standards because it's interesting and fun to do so, not because I think I need someone else's guidance as to what is attractive and what will look good in my pond. I have great respect for your knowledge and for the historical perspective you bring to the hobby, but you sometimes discount the things that you either don't understand or that do not fit in with your perspective.

[John F]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond I think that's the whole point, but just because it eludes you does not mean it can be ignored as an important economic factor. Ultimately, there will be more people who would rather buy a pretty ornamental fish than one that satisfies some distant organization's standards, whether that's "right" or "wrong." I, too, have learned a lot from your posts and hope to continue to do so. I want to learn about the hobby and its standards because it's interesting and fun to do so, not because I think I need someone else's guidance as to what is attractive and what will look good in my pond. I have great respect for your knowledge and for the historical perspective you bring to the hobby, but you sometimes discount the things that you either don't understand or that do not fit in with your perspective.

Ditto I agree whole heartedly! I could not find those words but would have said similar.Thank you for that, as I am trying to reply to too many threads in too many parishes at the same time.

[PapaBear]

Two things I think need to be pointed out. Nobody is knocking the accomplishments of American breeders, in fact if you will read around a bit more you will notice that several of them are highly respected for their work. The fact that they haven't equaled their Japanese counterparts yet is a fact of life, but not a disparagement. Merely an honest observation which they are the first to make.
The real point being made here is the difference between highly valued Koi vaireties that posess certain physical and artistic charateristics, (proper body conformation, high quality skin, coloring that is deep and rich, and patterns well balanced into a complete package), and atypical variants which lack one or more of these traits.
New varieties have to prove themselves over time as being capable of holding up to close scrutiny as they mature. If they can do so they become accepted. Until they prove themselves, they are mere curiosities that may someday be worth putting under a microscope for serious examination.
BTW, you took JR's tongue in cheek "book smart" quip waaaaay to seriously. Seeing you refer to him as inexperienced is one of the silliest things I've ever seen on this forum.

[mitten]

Yes, a surprise to find you here, John, not Dennis. I couldn't figure out who would register and come out of the box running on their first post here.

JR would maybe drive to the farm if invited. What is it 2 hours? 3 hours? He might even hunt, dunno. I was very disappointed BTW that in a couple trips across PA in October I saw so few deer. Driving at dawn and dark I can see hundreds on a trip. Michigan and Ohio were full. I waved as I went by your farm.

There is nothing being said about American breeders here that needs so much defense. A few of the breeders are just short of worshipped and many posters delight in pointing out examples that are sure shots at taking JR's dollar. I just bought my first "intermediate" fish and it's a Bruce Springsteen- born in the USA.

Maybe I have seen the parents of these fish then, eh? It is always easy to see that there are two koi hobbies in the US. You can see it at any show. Japanese fish and pretty fish. They are seperate. Seperate folks, seperate dealers, seperate pond types even. It is common for me to go to a show and see Japanese gosanke tosai for $30 and Domestic long fins, pretty ones, for more. I have never heard anything but great acclaim for your efforts as a fish dealer, fish breeder and fish healer.

The idea that a breeder can make any new fish and name it whatever they want is true, of course. That these innovations may be welcomed by the buyers can be true also. That these new creations get recognized and accepted and entrenched is not so likely, but what is the big deal? Make pretty fish and sell a lot of them. Sell enough to buy a Hummer if you want. I have never heard anything but great acclaim for your efforts as an honest fish dealer, fish breeder and fish healer.

You actually seem to write better than JR, he just tosses it out.

Richard Rumbold writes real well also.

Mickey the windowman

[JasPR]

well, I seem to have touched a soft spot with my longfin remarks? Breeding longfins is like rolling off a log- there is NO standard- if it has long fins and bright colors it is a longfin and it is sold. I can walk into any Petsmart in America and buy 100 for $7 a piece. The reason there is no standard is because there is no show standard. Is that not true? Thailand could turn out tens of thousands if they wanted.
John, I see you are not absorbing what I'm telling you. The Japanese trade association has scientists on staff. And the Government funded research program for nishikigoi was instrumental in variety development throughout the 60s and 70s. The chromosome count for each variety, the concept of atavism, the concept of the spreading gene, the orientation of dermis and deep dermis color, the link between eye color and phenotype, the relationship between pattern and hi plate count, the lethal genes produced by certain doitsu crosses, the limits on moyo and refinement– were all taught to me by Japanese breeders.
You can insult me all you want but it still does not change the facts of life here or in Japan.
The Japanese have two types of true breeders- Innovators and Imitators. The Innovators create and the Imitators improve or refine. It is a powerful alliance all build around finding a niche in the industry. I think you envision the breeders as cooks of sorts, randomly mixing genes from two fish or a group of fish they happen to find appealing in hopes of getting some phenotypic look that makes for a new variety? That is NOT how koi breeding is done expect for the third tier breeders looking to make sellable crops from oddball knockoffs. That is a business, for sure– just more of a transactional type business than an actual ongoing business.
Now as for the comment that people buy a ‘pretty’ fish and NOT what someone ‘tells them’ is beautiful or fits a standard- NEVER have I heard a more uninformed comment. EVERY beginner first buys longfins, ginrin and doitsu and often comments that they don’t get what all the fuss is about with the red and white ones. This is partly about the beginner’s eye and partly about the lack of understanding which goes into some varieties in the way of generational effort and refinement. It is a common bonding moment between koi keepers when they get more advanced in the area of Appreciation and find that for some reason those varieties don’t really look good to them anymore??? It is when ‘the clouds part’, that the epiphany happens and often, many hobbyists feel very ripped off by their dealers for keeping them under the ‘mushroom program’ for so long. ( in the dark and fed bullshite)
Here’s the deal boys- many US breeders would like to use the higher end Japanese stock to ‘lift’ the price of their fish. And there’s nothing wrong with trying to piggyback that production result with your top 10%. But in reality, today’s US stock is the evolution of yesterday’s US stock. Meaning it can and should be priced against and at a premium to low grade domestic stock. The idea of inventing ‘ new varieties’ by crossing hikari with kumonryu and goshiki is a lost leader.
You have to admit, the crooks abound on Ebay selling pure junk for hundreds of dollars- I do feel sorry for the innocents getting ripped off by these ‘American breeders’? Its hardly good for the rest of you that produce a good product. You should be on my side in that regard.

[JasPR]

Mickey, I'm afraid my days of trying to breed koi are long gone!! I just pulled these out of my photo album. This is me ( 17 years ago with dark hair- heck- just hair!!!!) with my best bud in the koi hobby at the time, Jose. He owned a koi operation and we tried our hand at breeding in the very early 1990s ( 1990-93). We used a neighbor's lake during that period of time and breeders from Konishi koi farm as brood stock. Jose was the first to bring really good koi into the area. Needless to say, we produced mostly junk but a few were actually recognizable breeds! LOls Here's a not too bad kujaku we harvested that year ( 1992 I believe?)
Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end! JR

[cppond]

[quote=JasPR;66504
Now as for the comment that people buy a ‘pretty’ fish and NOT what someone ‘tells them’ is beautiful or fits a standard- NEVER have I heard a more uninformed comment. EVERY beginner first buys longfins, ginrin and doitsu and often comments that they don’t get what all the fuss is about with the red and white ones. [/quote]

Actually, JR, your statement that "Every beginner first buys longfins, " supports the statement that "people buy a pretty fish," it does not contradict it. When people go on to trying to acquire quality gosanke, (I expect to do that myself) it is not as if they suddenly learned the difference in quality in a precious metal, it's because they want to play the game. The game is the hobby and the hobby has rules (not actually standards.) There is no intrinsic, greater value in a show fish than a mutt. They are about the same amount of meat.

Now while some standards may result in more attractive examples of nishikigoi, those examples are not necessarily more attractive than a random butterfly, they are just better examples of koi that belong to specific classifications of koi. But, the classifications themselves are subjectively created. They are not objectively measured in the way the quality of gold or leather can be, for instance. (take a look at the recent KOI USA to see how no two judges were able to rank the pictures of the koi in the same order) A breeder knows this all too well because he has to deal with the reality of the market, not the rarefied air of the show world..

Again, I have the greatest respect for your knowledge of the hobby and its rules, but it is a hobby, and knowledge in that area does not necessarily translate into authority in the world of economics, market forces, esthetics, etc. I have no personal stake in the longfin debate. I just recognize that the emergence of longfins and their recognition by the AKCA is an indication that the mass market is starting to influence the hobby. It wasn't too long ago that experts, such as yourself, might have stated that the AKCA would never set standards for longfins.

Please do not consider this as an attack as it is not my intention to offend you. I just disagree with some positions that you have taken. I find your insights into the hobby to be priceless.