Doitsu Lemon Kumonryu- Rare?

[cppond]

Well, the fact that John does not breed koi of show quality, in your opinion , does not mean that he doesn't know a great deal about raising koi and judging their merits, for whatever that is worth. I believe that JR and other great authorities have admitted that they have not been successful at breeding. So how is John out of his league? Do you think he doesn't know how to raise koi? Do you think that he doesn't know how to manage mud ponds? Do you think he can't distinguish between the relative qualities of show koi? Do you think he can't take care of sick koi? I think he can all of those things, probably better than most.

You can disagree with him as to his opinions on the business end of this hobby, but I don't think he has even expressed his opinion here on those other matters.

So, how is he out of his league?

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond Well, the fact that John does not breed koi of show quality, in your opinion , does not mean that he doesn't know a great deal about raising koi and judging their merits, for whatever that is worth. I believe that JR and other great authorities have admitted that they have not been successful at breeding. So how is John out of his league? Do you think he doesn't know how to raise koi? Do you think that he doesn't know how to manage mud ponds? Do you think he can't distinguish between the relative qualities of show koi? Do you think he can't take care of sick koi? I think he can all of those things, probably better than most. You can disagree with him as to his opinions on the business end of this hobby, but I don't think he has even expressed his opinion here on those other matters. So, how is he out of his league?

Can you do me a favor and take this outside? I dont want to hear this. I dont want to hear any of this koi politics.

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by lilhelper Can you do me a favor and take this outside? I dont want to hear this. I dont want to hear any of this koi politics.

Your right. I can't believe I even responded to this nonsense. I will withdraw from this thread. I apologize.

[lildude]

Everyone Get out of this Thread.

I have had enough of you trashing this thread, Get out of this thread, it was not yours to trash the way you all did. I was wanting to learn from this thread, because i wanted to know if this type of koi existed, but no! you all had to start arguing about your beliefs.


GET OUT, and take your Politics OUTSIDE!

I dont know if you are going to start harassing me or something, but I have the right to regulate the thread I started. Thank you.

[John F]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop I took the liberty of viewing the 53 fish you have listed for sale on your website (Hanover Koi Farm) and while several arguably are koi, none of them are show quality. FYI, you're both out of your league and over your head here on KB. Sorry, Don PS: My personal fav from your stocks. Not! http://www.veracart.com/merchants/ha...jpg?1163088702 More InfoDoitsu Ki Matsuba Butterfly 27" This is a female Doistu Matsuba Butterfly in the 27" range.Price does not include shipping.however. You do not rank high from any standpoint.

Firstly no one should feel the need to come to my defense. ( the few that there may be)

You are mostly correct Koi COP. I put very few show quality fish on the website. Folks that are into shows would not buy fish from a photo in most cases unless they new and had a relationship with the breeder. I do not take up much tank space with them either usually as my primary customer base is not interested in fish of this caliber. I do not cater to many show folks for a multitude of reasons, but the primary one is they are too small a market and buy very few fish. I have show quality fish if you care to come by this spring I will gladly show you some. I have quite Asagi that are show quality. Now depending on your tastes, the Asagi that are on there are show quality Tosai. Now if you consider the Hi on the dorsal a major fault,(depends on who you ask currently) then I will take that back. I have plenty more of the same quality that do not have the Hi ont he dorsal.
Frankly I have no idea why I am defending myself against you of all people anyway. You holed no place in the world of show koi or breeding, but I guess you are entitled to voice an opinion so I will honor that and reply.
JR is worthy because I do at least respect his knowledge regardless of how I feel he comes across.

There is a Tategoi Sanke there as well that is show worthy but YOU would probably think it's Kohaku.

I am aware of the knowledge base of this forum as well, and the differences between this and some other forums...some good...some not so good IMHO

[John F]

Quote: Originally Posted by lilhelper Everyone Get out of this Thread. I have had enough of you trashing this thread, Get out of this thread, it was not yours to trash the way you all did. I was wanting to learn from this thread, because i wanted to know if this type of koi existed, but no! you all had to start arguing about your beliefs. GET OUT, and take your Politics OUTSIDE! I dont know if you are going to start harassing me or something, but I have the right to regulate the thread I started. Thank you.

Sorry, I did not see this until the last post. I will honor your request. I hate the politics as well, and that is what the original point was that I was trying to make.

Sorry

[JasPR]

I think I can help here-


Nishikigoi were always wagoi ( scaled carp) until the German ambassador to Japan gave, as a gift, a group of 40 scaleless carp to the Japanese officials in 1904. These Austrian carp were food fish that had been developed as a sort of ‘technology of the era’ ( 1782) in that they did not have to be DE-scaled as they were cleaned for the table.
Some may not know that a director of the Agricultural Commercial Center Ministry named Shinnoske Matsubara, imported and cross bred a scaleless carp for interbreeding with wagoi.

But it was not the Germans with their scaleless Austrian food carp OR Matsusubara San that is responsible for doitsu Nishikigoi. It was another individual , Akiyama San that took the doitsu fish and crossed them with Nishikigoi’s asagi that made the transition. So the shusui was the first doitsu nishikigoi.
Basically, there were three ‘doitsu’ types developed from these crosses:
1) the kawa goi- the true ‘leather carp’ the second least valuable fish because it has no scales at all- or a small line of scales dorsal and lateral. The sanke and showa in leather are actually pretty attractive fish however- clean as a whistle.
2) the Kagami goi- in two kinds- one with a dorsal and lateral row of large scales and the other with only a dorsal line of large scales.
3) the Kabuto goi- a ‘throw away’ koi as the scales are sloppy and random. In Japan, it is said that these doitsu koi are food fare and not worthy of admiration . These fish are called armor koi in America and are considered non show fish or junk fish in the trade.

When you look for a show doitsu, realize that the judges will look for even symmetry on your doitsu fish’s scales. A single row, reminding one of a zipper is the ideal. A koi can have a variation but if it does it must be symmetrical. The order and cleanliness of the scales is everything.

The value of a doitsu fish is in its accomplishement as a type of doitsu. secondly as it's representation as a variety it represents.

JR

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by John F Sorry, I did not see this until the last post. I will honor your request. I hate the politics as well, and that is what the original point was that I was trying to make. Sorry

Thank you

[MikeM]

lil: This has been very informative. You began a thread asking a simple question and as soon as folks let you know the fish were over-priced and not Kumonryu, we get all sorts of arguments that amounted to condemning the idea that people would tell you the truth. There was the anger over the notion that the fish shouldn't be called whatever somebody wanted to call them. Then there was anger over the idea that value should be based on something other than whatever somebody might get convinced into spending. Then there was anger over using science. Then there was the asserted pride in developing a line of koi from scratch (rather than using top grade oyagoi from Japan). Indeed, it was implied that the domestic breeders using high quality oyagoi were somehow less deserving because they took a "shortcut" to produce their koi. Then it comes out that there is a direct commercial interest involved. It seems all that anger was because folks were talking the truth about over-priced, misnamed pondfish. ..... You have been taught an important lesson. In fact, there are several lessons to be learned. I hope you take them all to heart.

JR: I think you were remarkably restrained. I guess the calm atmosphere of K-B is getting to you.

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM lil: This has been very informative. You began a thread asking a simple question and as soon as folks let you know the fish were over-priced and not Kumonryu, we get all sorts of arguments that amounted to condemning the idea that people would tell you the truth. There was the anger over the notion that the fish shouldn't be called whatever somebody wanted to call them. Then there was anger over the idea that value should be based on something other than whatever somebody might get convinced into spending. Then there was anger over using science. Then there was the asserted pride in developing a line of koi from scratch (rather than using top grade oyagoi from Japan). Indeed, it was implied that the domestic breeders using high quality oyagoi were somehow less deserving because they took a "shortcut" to produce their koi. Then it comes out that there is a direct commercial interest involved. It seems all that anger was because folks were talking the truth about over-priced, misnamed pondfish. ..... You have been taught an important lesson. In fact, there are several lessons to be learned. I hope you take them all to heart. JR: I think you were remarkably restrained. I guess the calm atmosphere of K-B is getting to you.

I wasnt really following this thread actually. I just dont like people to fight, they are the ones who should learn a lesson.