How do you decide who wins in Kawarimono?

[Bern]

Hi Ray,

I didn't mean to imply that Hikari-Utsuri would be lumped into Kawari but I see that's how it might read.

In the show I was mentioning there were two Bekkos and 1 Kin-Showa entered, so the Club decided to close down these two classes. The Bekkos were moved to Kawari and the Kin-Shows to Hikarimoyo, which as you say makes some sense.

The Arcen situation is almost the exact opposite, where excess entrants require a totally different solution. Personally I felt that the Kawari2 rules needed to be amended. This year we had Kigois and Ki-Ochiba in Kawari1 when it would have been better to put kigoi in Kawari2 and take Ochiba-Shigure and put it back in Kawari1. Keeping patterned and plain apart.

Now that you have reminded me about that, I shall pass on my recommendations to the Voorzitter and Team Asia when they return from Thailand at the end of the week.

tot zeins
Bern

[dick benbow]

In most of the shows I bench ( mid to smaller sized ) the "catch-all" kawari class can be a busy place as many of the bigger show divisons are not made which helps to separate. Rather everything gets "dumped in there". Truth of the matter is that usually only a couple of really excellent examples of their color variety compete. Because of my experience, I was very much in favor
of a GC "B" to give some credit to a very special fish.

Over the years as i have seen it happen, many "neebees" start into the Gosanke looking to get the acclaim that this grouping brings...once that challenge subsides, then other color varieties begin to be of more interest and many a long time, good koi keeper will seek and show a kawari.

from my viewpoint, I have seen the judges do a good job at judging this class,
dispite the diversity and difficulty of comparing "apples to oranges".....

[dizzyfish]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow Over the years as i have seen it happen, many "neebees" start into the Gosanke looking to get the acclaim that this grouping brings...once that challenge subsides, then other color varieties begin to be of more interest and many a long time, good koi keeper will seek and show a kawari. ..

Dick I would have thought it would have been just the opposite. You begin in the Kawari class because the big spenders are buying Gosanke and the costs to seriously compete in those clases are high. I guess it all depends on your budget when you get into the hobby. It's difficult to understand how the desire to win GC would ever subside.

Kodama-san in a Q&A book included with "Kokugyo" lists the Superiority of Koi, as follows: 1st Place: Showa Shanshoku 2nd Place: Taishio Sanshoku 3rd Place: Kohaku 4th Place: Shiro Utsuri 5th Place: Koromo If I am understanding what he is saying, it is that preference is given to these classes in that order if all other things are equal.
Winning GC with something outside these classes would be almost impossible under the current judging system. Do others agree with this?
Mitch

[Bern]

Learning to be a judge wasn't about indoctrination over which variety was better than another. It was about opening my eyes to recognising quality however it may present itself.

The fact that Go-sanke generally take the higher awards has nothing to do people spending big bucks or the preferences of the judges. The reason that the dice are loaded goes all the way back to the mountains of Niigata.

The people that have loaded the dice are the breeders. More time, effort and expertise has gone into improving the quality of the Go-sanke varieties than any other. Some 2nd grade Go-sanke of some breeders can exude more quality that the top fish of a Kawari breeder.

But when it comes down to a show, especially one outside of Japan its all about the fish that turn up on the day. As long as the best one wins I don't care what variety it is.

However, if I had to put on a blind-bet it would be on go-sanke every time, the odds were stacked in their favour in the Niigata mud.

rgds
Bern

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by dizzyfish Kodama-san in a Q&A book included with "Kokugyo" lists the Superiority of Koi, as follows: 1st Place: Showa Shanshoku 2nd Place: Taishio Sanshoku 3rd Place: Kohaku 4th Place: Shiro Utsuri 5th Place: Koromo

I believe you'll find that as a general rule the 'proper' order is 1). Kohaku, 2). Sanke and 3). Showa based on their evolved size, conformation, pattern, color, skin, scale and finish.

No 'preference' is given at shows; it's all about the fish on the day.

Like Bern says, if you're placing a 'blind bet' then this would be 'the line.' Don

[dizzyfish]

I'm just wondering how many of you read the David Standen article in Koi USA July/August 2006 issue, about Super Mask owned by Martin and Mark and bred by Sakai. This article sort of makes it sound like everyone already knew who the winner was going to be before the 2006 All Japan Show. The article also claims that Martin and Mark had the best fish in the 2005 show but sort of got cheated. According to the article their Maruten Kohaku by Sakai was overwhelmingly considered to be the best fish in the show, but lost to the winning Showa because the Showa had better standing and history.
He further makes it sound like a Westerner may finially have won because the Japanese koi industry needed a foreign winner, in part to help overcome the difficulties of the Niigata earthquake, KHV scares, and a faltering Japanese economy. He also suggests the upcoming Japanese generation does pursue koi with the same passion as the previous generation.
Mitch
PS
Don't shoot me I'm only the messenger. I'm parroting what I read.

[KoiCop]

we're now pretty far afield for a thread entitled: How do you decide who wins in Kawarimono?

It might help if you started a new thread? Don

[MikeM]

Dizzy: The key to what Kodama said was "all other things being equal". In that rare situation, getting a Showa to that level of finish for all 3 colors is considered a greater challenge. Sanke comes next in difficulty, then Kohaku. The others are not as refined, and will not overcome a gosanke that is otherwise "equal". But, things are rarely "otherwise equal". I have read Japanese judges' explanations of their decisions where they recognized the difficulty of the accomplishment in deciding between two fish so fine that they could not be readily distinguished. There is a reason few Showa have grabbed GC honors in the top 3 shows in Japan. It's tough for them to ever be equal to Kohaku or Sanke.

[JasPR]

well Kodama is an experienced koi dealer for sure. In Japan, when I first met him, he was considered a 'consultant to hobbyists' wanting an 'on the ground pair of eyes' at the breeder's facilities. He is gifted no doubt- but not an active koi judge. I suspect he has only judged in the All Japan? More or less, a trade show.

Someone mentioned that there is not exact order- that is definitely true. Showa and sanke MUST 'bring it' all at one time which is very difficult- but kohaku stands naked before the judges with just red and white - so it must be near perfect to excel. All have levels that must reach so they are on equal footing.

I mentioned this in another post but once again my poor writing style ,as noted by Mickey, must have failed to make the point- gosanke have attributes that other varieties simply do not have. Most of the other varieties can, at best, be very clean specimens. But highly evolved gosanke skin is unique to that intensely addressed/bred group. The nature of their dermis is unique- so their color is deep and three dimensional. Only 'related' varieties can share in these traits- ai goromo, modern goshiki, shiro utsuri etc. can even begin to bring the same attributes to a show.

I'm an old style judge, trained the ZNA way of looking at koi, so I have a problem with the trend towards 'populist' judging. Judging is not a matter of personal opinion based on 'to date' personal experience. It is a body of knowledge taught by the masters for the last 50 years. It is a continuum----

[mrbradleybradley]

Hi

Back on track. An interesting thread.

I am no judge, but want to understand how my thinking might differ to a judge. I do look at the kawari class as a winner among unequals. You can sorta think about picking the winner as a similar process of selecting the GC. Certainly the already said key elements are first and formost important. But, a Show GC is chosen from 3 (or more rarely sometimes more) classes that are leaps ahead of kawari in everything. In my perception, the top contenders for GC are only narrowly different in accomplishment. Whereas in kawari, it does not appear that all koi are created equal. The decision to add a bekko into a kawari class at a local event and its subsequent win says alot about how much more refined a bekko is compared to the rest. This should not be a surprise. But, the field & level of accomplishment in kawari contenders is considerably more diverse IMHO. How do you pick a winner among such diversity? The already said key elements come first, but how do you decide that kanoko can win over chagoi when they are so different in appearance? Is it that the already said key elements rule supreme in the decision? Is it that pattern is not that important in kawari?

BB