Red and yellow both?

[dizzyfish]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR It's just an odd ball- but proof that genetically, true yellow and true red can exist. This fish competed in a 1989 ZNA show Diz, Joe is right, the classification for SKIN like metallic is more dominating than any color combination. Also kin showa is not yamabuki. You will get all this detail down as you ask more questions so don't get discouraged. Showa is a three colored fish but some kin showa can range from red to orhange to a brown red color. It is just the effect of heavy luster cell content within the metallic skin. When you look at the different colors in that skin just interpret what you see as 'shades of the same' rather than a true color. JR

JR I must confess to plagiarizing that yamabuki reference from Kodama-san in "Kokugyo". I'll just give the entire quote. Under Kin Showa on page 70 he writes "It was developed by adding the shine of Yamabuki to Showa Sanshoku. Because the strength of the metallic shine and the Sumi thickness are inversely proportional just like Yamato Nishiki, stronger shine weakens the Sumi. Again, Koi with both strong shine and thick Sumi are considered excellent. It is a challenge for breeders to create this koi." He also includes probably the best photo I have seen of a Kin Showa with yellow, white, black, and pinky/orange color.

While I don't believe Kodama-san can walk on water, his book does happen to be the best book on koi development I currently have in my collection. The book is likely to have mistakes, some of which could happen in the translation, but none the less it is a good source of information for discussion. I like it.
Mitch

[MikeM]

Joe: I'll let benching experts respond!.... I'm sure you've noticed that Ki Utsuri are generally more orange than yellow. "Ki" covers a range of shades. At some point the orange becomes sufficiently deep that it shifts into Hi. Benching teams draw the line with perfect accuracy. (By definition!)I would dearly love to see a Ki Utsuri as truly yellow as the yellow of the Akame Kigoi JR posted above.... a true Ki Showa would be awesome IMO. I saw a pic of one for sale a few years ago on a well-known auction site, but there were orange specks and everything else about the fish was mediocre at best. Still, the impact was striking if you did not look closely. (I expect it turned orange and junky in no time.)

[Regenmeneer]

Quote: I'm sure you've noticed that Ki Utsuri are generally more orange than yellow. "Ki" covers a range of shades. At some point the orange becomes sufficiently deep that it shifts into Hi. Benching teams draw the line with perfect accuracy.

Mike, why would benching teams draw a line between Hi and Ki Utsuri? Together with Shiro Utsuri, they are in the Utsurimono class.

[dick benbow]

A few years back I saw in a japanese publication a picture of a winning show koi that had a yellow body with red stepping pattern, all of the highest quality. I couldn't believe what i was seeing. I asked Joel of Pan about it and he seemed to know the breeder but I think it was more of a one off as opposed to something stabilized. It was incredible....

[JasPR]

Hi Mitch, OK, that makes more sense. The reference to Yamabuki is confusing albeit historically accurate. The better way to express that would be a hikari X normal .

Mike, ki utsuri most definitely exist in butter yellow. You are seeing 'baby ki utsuri' from hi utsuri ( more washed out versions of hi utsuri) and the orange naturally comes on as the fish grows and the skin gets wider showing more color cells. But ki utsuri is a luten gene that creates a pastel yellow- a common color gene in many animals.
So there is the true yellow utsuri, and the trouble is NOT the yellow- it is the sumi!! Really really poor quality sumi and sumi wrap formation.
In addition, the trend in these yellow utsuri quickly when towards metallic skin and the flat yellow utsuri was kinda left behind. You can still see them once in awhile. 5 or so years ago, Miyatora had a boast load of them and quite cheap?! Even for a guy who prices like Miyatora ( his hatred of white boys is legendary!!)

Here's a show winner for you---

[dizzyfish]

Here is a link to an intersting article on Mid-Atlantic Koi club web site: http://www.makc.com/Kikokuryu_Kodama.pdf Notice the colors.

I'm attaching photos of a Doitsu Lemon Hariwake male I have. It has a few pinkish spots that are more obvious in real life than the photos. I've always considered them defects, but they did get me thinking about color possiblities.

[JasPR]

Not an unusual occurrence at all Mitch. Many yamabuki get red spots as they age and often even shiro utsuri will show an orange stain ( a showa trait bleeding through) with age and development. One theory, and not one I necessarily agree with, says that a reaction to a harsh environment brings out natural 'camoulage' in koi and that things like latent color and shimmies emerge rather than the normal colors that a wild carp would produce. ??

JR

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar Joe As "hikari" means metallic, I don't see the point of the question!??? Orenji Ogon are still classified as ogon - whereas Kigoi are still classified as kawarimono - they are not metallic - same with chagoi and soragoi - IMHO!! Mike

Hikari actuall means "Light", or "Bright"
"Metallic" is truly said in japanese as "Metarikku" They say it this way because Metallic was adopted from english.

[keokoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar Joe As "hikari" means metallic, I don't see the point of the question!??? Orenji Ogon are still classified as ogon - whereas Kigoi are still classified as kawarimono - they are not metallic - same with chagoi and soragoi - IMHO!! Mike

Hi Mike I agree and thanks for reiterating that for me. I had another hobbyist tell me the kigoi was Orenji and somehow kept saying its Kawarimono. Anyhow perhaps my question will shed some light with this lurker..

Thanks again... and thanks lildude for bringing your post up or I would have not seen it..

Joe

[keokoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Not an unusual occurrence at all Mitch. Many yamabuki get red spots as they age and often even shiro utsuri will show an orange stain ( a showa trait bleeding through) with age and development. One theory, and not one I necessarily agree with, says that a reaction to a harsh environment brings out natural 'camoulage' in koi and that things like latent color and shimmies emerge rather than the normal colors that a wild carp would produce. ?? JR

yes JR Not unusual for some red to show up. I have 6 year old Izumiya Yamabuki Ogon that is showing signs of red. You have to look really hard but its there.. I got her at Sansai so not a huge investment. I enjoy her nevertheless but maybe not to the extento of Bob Winker AKA Yamabuki molester (Sorry BW I had to throw that in there)

Joe