Most "expensive" koi always win in Japan versus AKCA breeders choice?

[aquitori]

Well the very best fish are in Japan no doubt, when a fish that has been showing in Japan for awhile is past prime then it comes to the US. Then I think the fish has a very good chance of winning here in the US. The standard is high in Japan and there are very few AKCA Judges who have experienced seeing "Prime" condition koi at the Japan All-Japan Level.

Plus the hobbyist judging(ZNA) and Shinkokai level are different in appreciation, complex in some degree.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by koicluboftheair ...the best financed candidates usually winning... Being well financed obviously is a huge benefit IF you know what you are doing, but paying $50K for a $5K fish won't buy you a GC trophy. ...I’d question what specifically you would claim Americans lack in husbandry skills to properly finish koi for show?... Having deep pockets is no substitute for good husbandry. Many an expensive Koi has been brought to the U.S. only to degrade in quality rapidly due to incorrect water quality alone(a struggle for most ponders). That is not to say that being rich excludes you from being skillful. To the contrary, there are many who have invested as much if not more of themselves toward excellence in Koi Keeping as they have $$$ in Koi. If I show fish from Japanese brood stock bred domestically is that necessarily an inferior U.S. hobbyist pond koi?... The relative superiority/inferiority of any Koi, no matter where it is bred, by whom, or how much was paid for it, is settled in the show tank. There are a number of Domestic breeders I have a great deal of respect for, and it is the Koi they produce that have earned that respect, not the price tags. I simply think your accusation from anonymous sources is unmerited, unsubstantiated, and distasteful.

I hope that clears things up from my end. I am neither a Koi Judge nor a wealthy Koi Hobbiest that can afford to buy a trophy fish.

[Bob Winkler]

Quote: Originally Posted by koicluboftheair Oh, I agree with you about keeping it positive, but just as Tom Hatfield recently shared at a Nth Florida Koi Club meeting that most Taiwanese breeders will through fraud be able to qualify for importing koi into the U.S. under the new import restrictions to protect against SVC we should try to sort out the fact and fiction if we truly love the hobby and want it to flourish in these United States. There is little that we cannot accomplish in the U.S. as we demonstrate over and over again with a litany of examples. IF we are not able to breed the best quality koi for show then why is that? Assuming we are incapable due to some mystery like fog covering the issue isn't acceptable to thinking and caring people What is the official position of AKCA regarding the quality of our koi compared to that in Japan? Does ZNA have one for that of Japan? And of course is there a middle position for those in the leadership of AKCA/ZNA's?

Koi Club of the air: I say this with the utmost respect. If you want to quote and keep speaking for this AKCA Judge, perhaps you should invite him/her to put their views online. Because I am not sure you understood completely, and worry that some remarks could be getting taken out of context. You may have understood, and this started as an "honest and reasonable" question.

JR and Larry have stated some very reasonable, and defensible, statements. Please search past threads for answers to your questions if you cannot accept what they say at face value.

As for your last paragraph, IMHO you are missing the point. It is about the koi in front of you, it is not important or necessary to have some blanket "position" from an official or organization. That makes no difference in anything, and it is not a static thing anyway. It is just the koi in front of you.

[koicluboftheair]

[quote=PapaBear;67655]I simply think your accusation from anonymous sources is unmerited, unsubstantiated, and distasteful.quote]

If this judge was making the statement of his honest opinion it may be distasteful, but of course that would not make it any less potentially truthful. As for substantiation that is indeed what I was looking for here. And as for the source being anonymous, well I had dinner with him, a candidate judge and his wife, Todo Todorsky and his wife, and my mother Nellie, but you are probably correct and I should not have asked his opinion, but for a quotation.

Twice a month we speak to club reps, judges, breeders, fish vets, etc. for our audio show, but I might should have considered this rather just off the record talk. Funny how we can get bogged down on these sorts of issues, but the important matters such as will the hobby be able to continue is in the hands of those in the industry that are invited and privy to changes in legislation, etc. The hobbyist it would seem is appropriately enjoying their fish under the trees unable to see the forest and neither concerned for its future.

[Bob Winkler]

As media person, I would ask you.. Do you have permission to use this judges comments in public, and by extension, the AKCA itself? If you were this judge, would you want the opportunity to say their own thoughts, and in context? I know if some one were reporting what they thought they heard me say and it were the least bit wrong, or off base, I would be a bit pissed. At that someone. At the very least, from my limited knowledge of what you said this person said, the immediate thing that comes to mind is that you must have misunderstood. As Larry and JR tried to say nicely to you. I personally have never heard a judge say it was about the $ a fish were worth, but invariably about the highest quality koi winning. But as has been said, that usually goes hand roughly in hand. no matter where the koi was bred.

Sarcasm and your written tone sound very much like a reporter trying to sensationalize, or make, a story. To me. You have every right to ask someone their opinion, especially in the dinner setting as you describe. But you are not coming across as respectful or even on the side of the koi hobby in general, as you occur to me. You sound like you are judge and jury, when you are questioned about your comments. Because for now, these are still just your comments. May I ask who you are and your koi "history"? and "dude"... this is just a hobby to most people.

[JasPR]

koiclubintheair, remind me never to have dinner or a private conversation with you! Good grief!
LOls. JR

[Bob Winkler]

Is Luke's mother named Nellie and does she breed and raise koi?

[Brutuscz]

Just for the record...was the Maruyama showa that won GC worth much more than the maruten kohaku owned by martin and mark? I think dollar for dollar they were equal...but one was GC and one was not. Does anyone know if the more expensive koi won in this case?

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bob Winkler As media person, I would ask you.. Do you have permission to use this judges comments in public, and by extension, the AKCA itself? If you were this judge, would you want the opportunity to say their own thoughts, and in context? I know if some one were reporting what they thought they heard me say and it were the least bit wrong, or off base, I would be a bit pissed. At that someone. At the very least, from my limited knowledge of what you said this person said, the immediate thing that comes to mind is that you must have misunderstood. As Larry and JR tried to say nicely to you. I personally have never heard a judge say it was about the $ a fish were worth, but invariably about the highest quality koi winning. But as has been said, that usually goes hand roughly in hand. no matter where the koi was bred. Sarcasm and your written tone sound very much like a reporter trying to sensationalize, or make, a story. To me. You have every right to ask someone their opinion, especially in the dinner setting as you describe. But you are not coming across as respectful or even on the side of the koi hobby in general, as you occur to me. You sound like you are judge and jury, when you are questioned about your comments. Because for now, these are still just your comments. May I ask who you are and your koi "history"? and "dude"... this is just a hobby to most people.

With all do respect Judge Winkler, you did just call my comments sarcastic, sensational and supposedly harmful to the hobby correct? Thanks for not calling me a liar in public or otherwise.

Like you I suppose I am a dues paying member of MAKC, but new to it. As for specific koi resumes I've got a few fish that have won minor class category awards over several years, but nothing major. Does that impugn my credibility? I didn’t finish my KHA certification, but don’t know that I qualify as I might be considered professional.

I've been a regional features editor for KOI USA and been published therein, and consider myself something of a renegade as Childers recently described himself in his editors note. I agree that those in the hobby are other interested as compared to the general public. Indeed, the broader public interest is in protecting waterways from grass carp and for bait and gamefish from invasive species and diseases such as SVC, VHS, and even KHV. Plus, the broader public sentiment would probably be more supportive of domestic breeders than those inculcated within the existing hobbyist organizational structure.

As for other things I consider worthy of my koi resume they would include:
Promoting over the last three months the Hawaii Goldfish and Carp Association, the North Florida Koi Club, the Southern Arizona Koi Show and their prep for the 2007 AKCA Seminar. I also was involved in interviewing Joe White promoting the Southern Koi Association ZNA show in Naples, Florida; David Hardcastle about their Gainesville Koi Club Show; and Dave Cope about the 7th Annual Golden Empire Koi Show, hosted by the Bakersfield Koi & Water garden Society. I was involved in a broadcast promoting the opinions of Dr. Sandra Yosha regarding fish health and describing the purpose of new import regulations. I spoke with on air Peter Patera, the Las Vegas Show Chair about their 1st Annual Show and John Case representing the San Francisco Bay Area Koi Club about their October Brentwood Pond Tour.
There was Chris Neaves discussing the hobby and the South African Koi Keepers Society. Plus, Ray Jordan discussing their Texas Koi & Fancy Goldfish Society Show and Johnny Foster promoting the Nature's Coast Koi Club show. There was John Manns discussing the Southwest Koi & Pond Association Pond Tour and your own Barry Hixson sharing details of the MAKC Koi Show in Allentown, PA., and Bryan Bateman talking about the Holland show he judged and the Midwest Pond & Koi Society Show.

Of course that has all been since September. If you go back over the last several years there has been much more for what I consider promoting the hobby and attempts to expand the hobby especially considering we expose quite a few none club members to clubs. Sorry for such details that could be considered personal promotion, but you did ask essentially what I’ve done for the hobby didn’t you?

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bob Winkler Is Luke's mother named Nellie and does she breed and raise koi?

My name is John Hawley. Nellie is my mother. Thanks for asking.

As for who John Hawley is just google:
-MAKC John Hawley,
-SKA John Hawley,
-North Florida Koi Club John Hawley,
-KOI USA John Hawley,
-Las Vegas Koi Club John Hawley,
-San Francisco Bay Area Koi Club John Hawley
-San Diego Koi Club John Hawley
-Atlanta Koi Club John Hawley
& there is quite a lot more, but I don't mind presenting the means for some productive research. I'm being sarcastic again aren't I?