Most "expensive" koi always win in Japan versus AKCA breeders choice?

[koicluboftheair]

I was told by a long standing AKCA judge that unlike in Japan where the most "expensive" koi always wins in competition that AKCA to the contrary makes their choice between the best characteristics representative of a given variety in consideration of the fact that these are moving targets resulting from the breeder marketing. Is there a big difference between judges bending to the whims of the elite breeders versus the elite purchaser?

[Bern]

You need to be more specific when you say Japan.

Are you talking about commercial shows or hobbyists shows?
In the latter case, which society of hobbyists?

rgds
Bern

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bern You need to be more specific when you say Japan. Are you talking about commercial shows or hobbyists shows? In the latter case, which society of hobbyists? rgds Bern

Bern I did not ask this judge if he meant to say the All Japan ZNA Show or some other. It was a general statement, which causes me then to ask if this is generally true.

What I meant by AKCA judges bending to the breeders is that obviously (again as stated by an AKCA judge) the standards for varieties have changed from 10, 20, and 30 years ago due to the preferences of the public that has been marketed to them by the breeders (and dealers).

[JasPR]

Odd thing to say I think? Best fish are expensive. The VERY best fish are VERY expensive. Once someone starts to mention money and people's motives when judging fish, they are lost to the process- it's all about the fish. The best fish win no matter what ZIP CODE they are in- if the judges are skilled and the fish is in prime condition, who bought it and for how much they bought is really irrelevant.
AKCA , BKKS and ZNA judges , as well as breeder judges representing their own tastes or those of Shinkokai, ALL pick the best fish to the best of their ability. The STANDARD is created by the Japanese. The traits are refined by the breeders and taught to the amateur judges. This reality and the associated process does not depend on whether the judge is caucasian or oriental in genetic composition. There is only 'enlightned' and 'unenlightned'.

What this judge might be referring to and what you might have mis-interpreted is the fact that great koi, world class GCs, are usually 'campaigned' in Japan towards the National shows. Often you see these fish on the local, provincial and regional levels shows before they show up at the National shows. This does create a mystique and wets the appetites of the koi world for a final show down at 'The Show'. But there you have mega buck fish competing with Mega buck fish. It is important to realize that these are the best fish in the world- I repeat, the BEST fish in the WORLD. There are just a handful alive and in show condition each year. I understand that certain baseball cards and certain race horses go for thousands and millions. Koi are no different.

JR

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Odd thing to say I think? Best fish are expensive. The VERY best fish are VERY expensive. Once someone starts to mention money and people's motives when judging fish, they are lost to the process- it's all about the fish. The best fish win no matter what ZIP CODE they are in- if the judges are skilled and the fish is in prime condition, who bought it and for how much they bought is really irrelevant. AKCA , BKKS and ZNA judges , as well as breeder judges representing their own tastes or those of Shinkokai, ALL pick the best fish to the best of their ability. The STANDARD is created by the Japanese. The traits are refined by the breeders and taught to the amateur judges. This reality and the associated process does not depend on whether the judge is caucasian or oriental in genetic composition. There is only 'enlightned' and 'unenlightned'. What this judge might be referring to and what you might have mis-interpreted is the fact that great koi, world class GCs, are usually 'campaigned' in Japan towards the National shows. Often you see these fish on the local, provincial and regional levels shows before they show up at the National shows. This does create a mystique and wets the appetites of the koi world for a final show down at 'The Show'. But there you have mega buck fish competing with Mega buck fish. It is important to realize that these are the best fish in the world- I repeat, the BEST fish in the WORLD. There are just a handful alive and in show condition each year. I understand that certain baseball cards and certain race horses go for thousands and millions. Koi are no different. JR

No JR the judge was quite clear in what he said distinquishing the Japanese standard from the AKCA judging standard. He clearly stated that in Japan the most expensive fish wins versus with the AKCA standard the best fish wins. Campaigning a fish surely doesn't make the fish a better fish although I won't dispute your statement that the Japanese have the "BEST fish in the WORLD." And the refinement of traits interests me as this judge also noted that the AKCA judges have had to adapt to public tastes in varieties that was marketed by breeders. Thus, what is a grand champion today would not have qualified for such under AKCA 20 and 30 years ago. It isn't that today's fish is better, but rather the standard has changed. In that same vein I think it interesting to consider as you say that the Japanese have the "BEST fish in the WORLD" relating their marketing to a much greater extend as compared with domestic breeders. In the U.S. the breeders influence what their customers see and want and ultimately what AKCA judges see at shows. The same happens in Japan where they change their standards as what was popular 20 and 30 years ago no longer appears at shows. Are the varieties of today better than those from 20 or 30 years ago? That would seem to be an emotive value judgement at best, which would cause one to question the valuation of Japanese versus domestic fish and ZNA versus AKCA.

[Christian @Berlin]

surely wins the expensive fish.
Why should u get a koi for a 5er and pay 1000s for ugly ducklings?

everyone in Japan knows the quality of the top fish and noone asks why they`re so high ratet. Leavin politics behind - I would say it`s easy to tell who the champion and who second..

regards

[PapaBear]

Which came first???
How does the most expensive Koi in Japan BECOME the most expensive? By winning the big shows! Every time a Koi wins a coveted prize its value increases which is only natural. Does that mean that a Koi with a winning record going in to the All Japan show is guaranteed to be the winner? No, but it will probably make it the odds on favorite.
It seems odd to me that anyone would presume that the Judges at the highest level of competition in the world would ruin their own credibility by picking a lesser fish (on the day of the show), just because they knew the owner spent $5K more than the next guy. That strains credibility to the limit.
It may well be that the most expensive purchase won't win an American show, but most expensive and best kept aren't neccessarily the same. Many Americans have deep pockets to purchase high end fish, but lack the husbandry skills to properly finish them for show. Most Koi shown in the US come from hobbiests ponds, with obvious exceptions. I don't know that to be the case in Japan.

[koicluboftheair]

“Which came first???” According to this highly recognized AKCA judge in Japan the “price” came first contrary to in AKCA.


“How does the most expensive Koi in Japan BECOME the most expensive? By winning the big shows!” Surely the fish must compete first using your chicken or egg analogy they must hatch first before becoming the chicken rising through the ranks apparently benefiting from widespread notoriety paid for by the opposing camps like we choose politicians in the U.S. with the best financed candidates usually winning.

“It seems odd to me that anyone would presume that the Judges at the highest level of competition in the world would ruin their own credibility by picking a lesser fish (on the day of the show), just because they knew the owner spent $5K more than the next guy. That strains credibility to the limit.”

I agree unless of course their credibility is based on something other than a transparent system of very specific standards and valuations. How much sumi, hi, or akay does it take with a certain fish, pattern and given conformation to make one versus another the winner in Japan versus the U.S. system? Are the judging systems really the same contrary to how this long time AKCA head judge described it?

“Many Americans have deep pockets to purchase high end fish, but lack the husbandry skills to properly finish them for show.”
I’d question what specifically you would claim Americans lack in husbandry skills to properly finish koi for show? Is this scientifically based or some form of cultural appeal to the superior nature of Orientalism in raising fine koi. Interestingly, there are domestic brood stocks that originated in Japan, but some would continue to say even these aquaculture professionals many from throughout the world lack “something” that the Japanese have.

“Most Koi shown in the US come from hobbiests ponds, with obvious exceptions.”
If I show fish from Japanese brood stock bred domestically is that necessarily an inferior U.S. hobbyist pond koi?

[dick benbow]

In life I have learned not to try and second quess what someone meant....when they said something that i was not privy to.
The judges I know from AKCA travel around a lot and may or may not have seen the fish they are judging before. In the top shows in Japan, even average koi people know the top koi in shows and follow their progression to the top. So I think in Japan more than other countries this advancement of koi year to year may give that impression that there is politics involved. As Jim has indicated, in japan there are hobbyists and professionsal involved in various show judging which may give a different emphasis on criteria. Being human, there may even be some attempt to influence a decision for any number of reasons.
AKCA ( like ZNA) is made up of judges from the hobbist side. It doesn't make them any less human or any more right. But when you have many judges in Japan making many votes, I think the chances of any one person being that influencial is diminished....
As for me, I just as soon keep a positive outlook on the hobby that I so care about.

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow In life I have learned not to try and second quess what someone meant....when they said something that i was not privy to. The judges I know from AKCA travel around a lot and may or may not have seen the fish they are judging before. In the top shows in Japan, even average koi people know the top koi in shows and follow their progression to the top. So I think in Japan more than other countries this advancement of koi year to year may give that impression that there is politics involved. As Jim has indicated, in japan there are hobbyists and professionsal involved in various show judging which may give a different emphasis on criteria. Being human, there may even be some attempt to influence a decision for any number of reasons. AKCA ( like ZNA) is made up of judges from the hobbist side. It doesn't make them any less human or any more right. But when you have many judges in Japan making many votes, I think the chances of any one person being that influencial is diminished.... As for me, I just as soon keep a positive outlook on the hobby that I so care about.

Oh, I agree with you about keeping it positive, but just as Tom Hatfield recently shared at a Nth Florida Koi Club meeting that most Taiwanese breeders will through fraud be able to qualify for importing koi into the U.S. under the new import restrictions to protect against SVC we should try to sort out the fact and fiction if we truly love the hobby and want it to flourish in these United States. There is little that we cannot accomplish in the U.S. as we demonstrate over and over again with a litany of examples. IF we are not able to breed the best quality koi for show then why is that? Assuming we are incapable due to some mystery like fog covering the issue isn't acceptable to thinking and caring people

What is the official position of AKCA regarding the quality of our koi compared to that in Japan? Does ZNA have one for that of Japan? And of course is there a middle position for those in the leadership of AKCA/ZNA's?