Hobbyists, Dealers, Breeders and ZNA

[Sangreaal]

In another thread a competitor at a ZNA show had to withdraw his entry due to being a dealer. I am ignorant of show rules and would like to know who, besides hobbyists, can show their personal koi at these shows? I find it kind of perplexing that someone who sells koi for others cannot compete with their own personal stock. And what about breeders? They necessarily sell fish too. Are they banned as well? Can their fish only be shown by those that purchase them? Are shows ONLY for hobbyists?

I'm missing the logic in the rules. Someone help me please.

Marie

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal In another thread a competitor at a ZNA show had to withdraw his entry due to being a dealer. I am ignorant of show rules and would like to know who, besides hobbyists, can show their personal koi at these shows? I find it kind of perplexing that someone who sells koi for others cannot compete with their own personal stock. And what about breeders? They necessarily sell fish too. Are they banned as well? Can their fish only be shown by those that purchase them? Are shows ONLY for hobbyists? I'm missing the logic in the rules. Someone help me please. Marie

In speaking with different clubs versus the association leaderships I've found over the years the rules vary. There are some common threads though and the point made in the other thread I've seen occur also at the Central Florida Show where (the same leadership as this show) strictly applies their interpretation of what they believe the appropriate ZNA standard to be. Bateman recently described this years show in the Netherlands that he particapated in judging and both vendors and hobbyists compete and everyone was generally happy with the arrangement.

I chuckle along with some breeders at this rule that typically becomes an issue when someone buys a fish from a breeder or dealer at the show prior or during benching and then wants to enter the koi in competition.
Those in the business that I've spoken to have made a valid point as few fish actually in competition actually were raised from spawns in the owners pond. Taking these rules to extreme might require some sort of bill-of-sale prior to showing a fish to determine how long the owner had possession of the fish prior to show. Is the standard six months or two years required for ownership? I believe the rule is more related to not being able to purchase the fish from a vendor booth, but if you bought it out front before bringing it in that would be fine. I'd like to see the actual rule as it is written versus interpreted.

[aquitori]

In the ZNA clubs here in California, a dealer can join the club, but can not take office or have any voting rights. The shows are open strictly to members, non-members and closed to professionals unless there is a dealer competition. I know in the UK they have ZNA shows completely open to dealer and hobbyist to compete against one another.

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori In the ZNA clubs here in California, a dealer can join the club, but can not take office or have any voting rights. The shows are open strictly to members, non-members and closed to professionals unless there is a dealer competition. I know in the UK they have ZNA shows completely open to dealer and hobbyist to compete against one another.

I'm curious by extension what constitutes a "professional?" Does this only apply to koi farmers?

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori In the ZNA clubs here in California, a dealer can join the club, but can not take office or have any voting rights. The shows are open strictly to members, non-members and closed to professionals unless there is a dealer competition. I know in the UK they have ZNA shows completely open to dealer and hobbyist to compete against one another.

What about breeders, Tony? Are they part of the professionals that the shows are closed to? Do they have limited memberships too?

[aquitori]

Professional in ZNA Japan bylaws is anyone who deals with fish. That means the breeder, broker/agent, dealer are Professional by ZNA Japan terms. ZNA US terms professional defines any person(s) dealing with koi on the dry goods side or wet goods side.

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori Professional in ZNA Japan bylaws is anyone who deals with fish. That means the breeder, broker/agent, dealer are Professional by ZNA Japan terms. ZNA US terms professional defines any person(s) dealing with koi on the dry goods side or wet goods side.

Excellent responses! Is there a process by which the rules can be changed or amended for as you say other nations ZNA do allow professional involvement? Plus, what is the general criteria for determining under ZNA rules how long a hobbyist must own a fish for it to qualify for a given ZNA show in the U.S. for instance? This could include prepurchases of fish that were brought to show by dealer or breeder or one owned by individual, but raised by breeder in which case things might get truly confusing if the rules are not specific.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by koicluboftheair Excellent responses! Is there a process by which the rules can be changed or amended for as you say other nations ZNA do allow professional involvement? Plus, what is the general criteria for determining under ZNA rules how long a hobbyist must own a fish for it to qualify for a given ZNA show in the U.S. for instance? This could include prepurchases of fish that were brought to show by dealer or breeder or one owned by individual, but raised by breeder in which case things might get truly confusing if the rules are not specific.

Well to not too involved in the politics of the ZNA, ZNA Japan left each district in the hands of the district chair. How club rule dont have to be under ZNA Rules, just as long they fit the by-laws to their perticular need. But here in the states a professional cant enter fish in open competition unless it is stated in that show rules.

As far as my under standing there is an honor system in regards to showing fish. People running the show arent goin to make sure your fish is in your pond before goin to show, I think as long as you own the fish it is fine. Even if you buy the fish a day before the show, it is still in the hands of the hobbyist.

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori Professional in ZNA Japan bylaws is anyone who deals with fish. That means the breeder, broker/agent, dealer are Professional by ZNA Japan terms. ZNA US terms professional defines any person(s) dealing with koi on the dry goods side or wet goods side.

Well Tonio, I guess that clause will effectively prevent me from ever becoming a ZNA member.

Bummer.

Marie

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori Well to not too involved in the politics of the ZNA, ZNA Japan left each district in the hands of the district chair. How club rule dont have to be under ZNA Rules, just as long they fit the by-laws to their perticular need. But here in the states a professional cant enter fish in open competition unless it is stated in that show rules. As far as my under standing there is an honor system in regards to showing fish. People running the show arent goin to make sure your fish is in your pond before goin to show, I think as long as you own the fish it is fine. Even if you buy the fish a day before the show, it is still in the hands of the hobbyist.

Considering the money involved when a fish rises to the upper levels of the competitions it seems something more than an honor system would be worth consideration. As with one of the first lessions I learned in an undergrad Financial Accounting course if there is no inventory control one can expect to have great losses. Honor is not a system we utilize in business and likewise it might not should be for determining qualifications for high quality koi showing at certain shows.

Likewise, an honor system managed by individuals that can show favor and otherwise versus well defined rules allows for controversies that likely damages the hobby more so than develops and nurtures it in my opinion. Plus, as I asked in another thread regarding finding the means to improve organizational efficiencies within the hobby it would seem running shows is considered more important by the leadership than protecting the hobby at-large.