Pet Store Tategoi

[bekko]

Is the left gill operculum deformed?

-ste ve

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by bekko Is the left gill operculum deformed? -ste ve

I don't think so, but I'll try to get a better pic. Should I get it from the front, back, or straight at the gill?

[PapaBear]

How long it will stay cute is pretty much a crapshoot. I can't get a good enough view of the beni to gauge its quality, (pretty hard for me at this size anyway ) but so far so good. I'd be leaning heavily toward 2 year Sanke *** 3-4 year bekko in the making, but better pics of the hi plates will make that call a lot easier.
Any way you look at it, for the money you spent there's no way to get hurt

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear How long it will stay cute is pretty much a crapshoot. I can't get a good enough view of the beni to gauge its quality, (pretty hard for me at this size anyway ) but so far so good. I'd be leaning heavily toward 2 year Sanke *** 3-4 year bekko in the making, but better pics of the hi plates will make that call a lot easier. Any way you look at it, for the money you spent there's no way to get hurt

That's what I figured. It's got a good shot at being a very nice pond fish, if nothing else. One of the things that I noticed was what I thought to be good skin quality on this fish. I had heard "skin quality" mentioned before, but had not seen, in person, a koi that was distinguished by the quality of its skin. This one seemed different to me.

[dick benbow]

thank-you Carl for bringing a smile to my face each time I ran down the list of thread topics and spotted yours. I've seen the word tategoi misunderstood so many times by well meaning folks, that it truely tickled me to see it used with the words, pet store.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not "dissing" you or it's use here. Just an honest observation of how i responded to seeing the posting. And i know just as honestly, that you wanted input on your purchase so you could learn.
So I'm glad you posted.

One of the best ways to learn about what makes a true tategoi is to see one, up close and personal. Japan is a good place to do that But if not, if you have someone who has been sucessful in shows and has bought a one or 2 year old koi and raised it several years and you can take the time to see the koi upfront , That would help. Most japanese breeders as a rule are reluctant to let young tategoi get away from them. There are many good dealers around that will take the time to help educate you. Many advertise here. Also we have some great domestic breeder folks that can show you
what skin is like and what to expect. It's always best to see this first hand, cause once you've seen it, you've got it. Talk or photos while sometimes all we have are not the best.Sharon and Dan Olson who post here have a tosai tategoi showa that toshio sakai let them have.

I think you did pretty well to pick this one out from the rest. And the cost of which goes toward your education ( koi kollege)...but the truth is to be looking for a tategoi, you basically have to have an invitation by a japanese breeder.....they often stealth them away till the time of their unveiling...and because of their rarity, the price will be pretty dear as well. I hope something I've said will help motivate you to start learning by seeing. I think my education started after i had been10 years into the hobby when i went to my first all japan show. Wow, that opened my eyes to what was possible. and in the last 20 years I've been slowly putting the knowledge stepping stones in place

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow thank-you Carl for bringing a smile to my face each time I ran down the list of thread topics and spotted yours. I've seen the word tategoi misunderstood so many times by well meaning folks, that it truely tickled me to see it used with the words, pet store. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not "dissing" you or it's use here. Just an honest observation of how i responded to seeing the posting. And i know just as honestly, that you wanted input on your purchase so you could learn. So I'm glad you posted. One of the best ways to learn about what makes a true tategoi is to see one, up close and personal. Japan is a good place to do that But if not, if you have someone who has been sucessful in shows and has bought a one or 2 year old koi and raised it several years and you can take the time to see the koi upfront , That would help. Most japanese breeders as a rule are reluctant to let young tategoi get away from them. There are many good dealers around that will take the time to help educate you. Many advertise here. Also we have some great domestic breeder folks that can show you what skin is like and what to expect. It's always best to see this first hand, cause once you've seen it, you've got it. Talk or photos while sometimes all we have are not the best.Sharon and Dan Olson who post here have a tosai tategoi showa that toshio sakai let them have. I think you did pretty well to pick this one out from the rest. And the cost of which goes toward your education ( koi kollege)...but the truth is to be looking for a tategoi, you basically have to have an invitation by a japanese breeder.....they often stealth them away till the time of their unveiling...and because of their rarity, the price will be pretty dear as well. I hope something I've said will help motivate you to start learning by seeing. I think my education started after i had been10 years into the hobby when i went to my first all japan show. Wow, that opened my eyes to what was possible. and in the last 20 years I've been slowly putting the knowledge stepping stones in place

Thank you, Dick. I appreciate your comments. The use of the word tategoi with the phrase "pet store" was an intentional attempt at humor (hence the "wink" icon.) I am happy that I succeeded in entertaining at least you, if no one else.

But, I have to say, I am a little disappointed that few of my questions were answered. Now, I realize that the overwhelming odds are that this koi blows up, but certainly something can be learned here, Can no one tell me what to look for to determine if the beni is strong? The second step appears to have three rows of sashi. At the age of this fish, is that good or bad? Is there any significance to having hi at the bottom of the dorsal where the hi steps meet the dorsal? Does that tend to mean something or have no correlation with any end result?

I learned a lot from Kokugyo II, and I was kind of looking for information along those lines. I wasn't looking for affirmations that this fish was truly a tategoi, just some useful observations and generalities. I am fortunate enough to have the resources to purchase true tategoi, if I were ready, but I am not there yet. Perhaps a trip to Japan would make sense, but I think it's too soon for that, as well.

Also, as aside, I was wondering if anyone knew where these chain store fish came from, but that's not terribly important.

[PapaBear]

Loosely defined tategoi only means that it will improve... so at 3" the term can be loosely applied to almost anything that isn't obviously butt ugly While yours will likely improve for a while (it is cute, not ugly) how much and for how long is the question. To the Japanese, true tategoi are too good to sell this year . The Koi for sale to all but a very select few ought to be called "tategone" IMHO, because most of the time they're just about as good as they'll ever get. (just my non-expert opinion )
There is an important caveat to my last statement. We have some dealers who are members of this board. Take a look at their recent buying trip pictures. TateWOOHOO!!! Respected dealers (respected by the Japanese Breeders) get a better look than a newbie. They've earned it.
You mentioned that while you are still learning about skin quality (aren't we all?) there was something about this one that just looked "different". Higher quality skin does have a different look to it, but you'll have to read some of JR's, MikeM's, DickB's, BobW's posts on the subject to learn about it here. I'm learning how to see it, but I can't begin to put it into words the way they can.
All pet stores are not created equal, and they don't all buy speckldygoi from the lowest bidder. Some have had to start getting better quality stock (still not high end, but not as junky either) because their customers have started to wise up and demand better quality. At least now you can begin to find discernable varieties in their sales tanks.
I mentioned earlier that the pictures just weren't big enough to say much beyond "cute". You can't see the skin or the hi plates well enough to discern anything about it.
The beni should be darker in the center of the scales if it is of decent quality. It should look better at the head than toward the tail, and finish slowly in a head to tail progression.
The sumi should be barely emerging, hopefully developing at the tail first and slowly working toward the head, and finish in the same fashion.
In a Tategoi Sanke these two things will finish to their greatest potential at about the same time, hold for a season or two, and then say a long, slow, goodbye.
If someone comes along and tells you I got something wrong, pay attention... They're probably right !

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear Loosely defined tategoi only means that it will improve... so at 3" the term can be loosely applied to almost anything that isn't obviously butt ugly While yours will likely improve for a while (it is cute, not ugly) how much and for how long is the question. To the Japanese, true tategoi are too good to sell this year . The Koi for sale to all but a very select few ought to be called "tategone" IMHO, because most of the time they're just about as good as they'll ever get. (just my non-expert opinion ) There is an important caveat to my last statement. We have some dealers who are members of this board. Take a look at their recent buying trip pictures. TateWOOHOO!!! Respected dealers (respected by the Japanese Breeders) get a better look than a newbie. They've earned it. You mentioned that while you are still learning about skin quality (aren't we all?) there was something about this one that just looked "different". Higher quality skin does have a different look to it, but you'll have to read some of JR's, MikeM's, DickB's, BobW's posts on the subject to learn about it here. I'm learning how to see it, but I can't begin to put it into words the way they can. All pet stores are not created equal, and they don't all buy speckldygoi from the lowest bidder. Some have had to start getting better quality stock (still not high end, but not as junky either) because their customers have started to wise up and demand better quality. At least now you can begin to find discernable varieties in their sales tanks. I mentioned earlier that the pictures just weren't big enough to say much beyond "cute". You can't see the skin or the hi plates well enough to discern anything about it. The beni should be darker in the center of the scales if it is of decent quality. It should look better at the head than toward the tail, and finish slowly in a head to tail progression. The sumi should be barely emerging, hopefully developing at the tail first and slowly working toward the head, and finish in the same fashion. In a Tategoi Sanke these two things will finish to their greatest potential at about the same time, hold for a season or two, and then say a long, slow, goodbye. If someone comes along and tells you I got something wrong, pay attention... They're probably right !

Maybe you did get something "wrong," but I appreciate the comments. They are very useful.

Thanks.

[dick benbow]

when we talk about beni, it needs to be related to the spray job associated with paint for a car. the thicker the layered look the better. The red also needs to have a uniform look to it from behind the head to the tail stop. what this means is that the red paint job has been distributed evenly thruout. Normally beni is weakest at the tail and may look like a paint job layer short. a 3 scale sashi will take a VERY LONG TIME to finish. The longest (deepest) sashi I ever purchased is 2 scales deep. She is 3 years old and I figure ( and so does the breeder) another 3-4 years easily. I'd much more like to see you looking for something with about a scale to go, which means chances are better for a finish in a year or two.What we like to see happen as a koi grows with beni at the base or up into the dorsal is that it pulls down as it grows to loose or have a minimal encroachment into the dorsal. Glad to see your into Kodama-san's helpful books. Probably the next best thing to that visit to japan. Learning the nuances of selection of quality traits is a process and will take time, but keep pressing toward the mark. remember when it comes to genetics that';s the breeder's responsibility, but when it comes to helping the fish to be able to develop everything it has is our responsibility of water keeping. So put as much study into water keeping now as you do understanding quality koi. Cause when you get the one down, you'll need to be at the same level with the other......

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow when we talk about beni, it needs to be related to the spray job associated with paint for a car. the thicker the layered look the better. The red also needs to have a uniform look to it from behind the head to the tail stop. what this means is that the red paint job has been distributed evenly thruout. Normally beni is weakest at the tail and may look like a paint job layer short. a 3 scale sashi will take a VERY LONG TIME to finish. The longest (deepest) sashi I ever purchased is 2 scales deep. She is 3 years old and I figure ( and so does the breeder) another 3-4 years easily. I'd much more like to see you looking for something with about a scale to go, which means chances are better for a finish in a year or two.What we like to see happen as a koi grows with beni at the base or up into the dorsal is that it pulls down as it grows to loose or have a minimal encroachment into the dorsal. Glad to see your into Kodama-san's helpful books. Probably the next best thing to that visit to japan. Learning the nuances of selection of quality traits is a process and will take time, but keep pressing toward the mark. remember when it comes to genetics that';s the breeder's responsibility, but when it comes to helping the fish to be able to develop everything it has is our responsibility of water keeping. So put as much study into water keeping now as you do understanding quality koi. Cause when you get the one down, you'll need to be at the same level with the other......

Thanks, Dick. All of that may have seemed very academic to you, but it is very helpful to me. Do you think your observations about a three scal sashi would be applicable to a koi as young as this one?

As to water quality, filtration, etc., I've been studying that for quite a while, and have achieved a certain level of comfort with it, though I am still learning there, as well.