Koi Club Fiefdoms?

[koicluboftheair]

Koi Club Fiefdoms:

Yesterday I found that:
1) What Burt really meant regarding the difference between how the Japanese and AKCA judges determine the winners in shows.
2) After claiming the Southern Koi Association ZNA membership was by invitation only and further attempts by Rod, Mike, and others to dissuade me from this perception I had a Eureka moment upon finding a membership application on the main page of their website. Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! That makes me feel much better about SKA ZNA. I’ll try to spread the good news!

I’m hoping my concerns on the following can also be cleared up as were those two thoughs that I expressed here yesterday.

There were obviously two koi shows last weekend. The North Florida Koi Club had their 20th Anniversary Show with many high quality koi that showed south of Jacksonville, Florida. The Southern Koi Association ZNA also had their 1st Koi Show in Naples, Florida.

-Why was it necessary for these two shows to compete against one another on the same weekend and on the same message boards for attention? Having these two shows on the same weekend required that those same people that would typically work and show at both to pick and choose. Obviously vendors were put in a position of picking and choosing also. Plus, visitors were put in the situation of choosing between locations and flat out told here that the place to be was Naples if you want to see some of the best fish and here the best speakers. Just one weekend apart would have seemed to have been a much more cooperative approach, but of course SKA was created and is run by many well respected leaders in AKCA so there is probably a very good explanation.

-I understand at one point there was a miscommunication about dates, but the dates of both shows has otherwise been known for months. To me this seems to be something of a shot across the bow at clubs like North Florida that might not have gone along with the wishes of some running the old All Florida Koi & Pond Show (AFKAPS), which SKA and others reconstituted in the same location as the Central Florida Koi Show, which by the way is only a few months away from now in March 2007. The same folks that organized the SKA Show are running the Central Florida Show. I’m not a board member or part of any committees in the North Florida Club and infrequently attend meetings, but have friends and associates that worked tirelessly to pull off a good koi show. It seems obvious to me (and I’m willing to be corrected on my perceptions as with those matters yesterday) that the leaders of SKA, and the Central Florida Show, many who are highly respected AKCA leaders as well are doing such things for selfish reasons. I can appreciate the rationale to reorganize AFKAPS and have SKAs leaders running essentially the same show, but when SKA would seem to try and compete with a long standing Florida Koi Club with a standing tradition for that time frame that by the way is also scheduled to host the 2008 AKCA Seminar it just seems wrong. How much money has AKCA been making of recent on the seminars and how can that improve? Hopefully SKA won’t have an event the weekend of it in 2008, but of course they wouldn’t do that, but instead try to soften up the club a bit maybe?

-Obviously I’m not the only one noticing such circumstances as a few of the other message board members within the koi community are bringing up the same points. And it isn’t as if there are not others out here that can finance super shows that are willing to do battle over koi territory, but should the AKCA & ZNA leaderships divvy up territories like fiefdoms? There are far more people in the hobby than are members of either AKCA or ZNA organizations and perceptions such as mine are widespread and don’t require killing the messenger to improve the orgs, but suggest an honest discussion if possible of possible reforms or just tell me I’m crazy, tell all your friends and associates the same and hope that suffices as a band aide on the situation.

[Rod L.]

John,
As much as I hate to air these sort of misunderstandings, since they always will still be misinterpreted by some and just start more bad rumours, I guess I will make a brief attempt to straighten a few things out.

The SKA derives NO money rom the CFKS show and the same holds true for the other member clubs. Yes the show makes money, but ALL money goes back into the show to perpetuate the show and make the show better. By better I mean getting speakers from a distance away that must be paid for by the show. Eventually we will outgrow the show site and have to move. We have a very good deal with the hotel at this show site, but I doubt we could find anything comparable in the area, so that takes more money. If you are constantly taking all monies and giving it back to the member clubs, you start out each show with a bankroll of zero or a small amount from each club to start each show. Again this is something that is really none of anyone else's business except for the clubs that were and are now involved with show and that is as far as I am going to take that issue. Everything that was done was for the perpetuating a show a in Central Florida, making the show better, being able to legally own some equiment as a show and having some sort of protection for the show legally and financially. The financially goes much deeper than this, but should not be the concern of anyone else.

Now, the show dates and all that concern. Since ZNASKA is a member of a show (CFKS) that generates no monies for the member clubs, SKA has a hard time raising funds for the treasury. The simple answer to this is to hold a Koi show and be able to do raffles, auctions etc. We are a very deomographic group and therefore do not hold montly meetings, which could also be used to raise funds. In founding this club, we were very specific with our members in telling them that we DID NOT want them to drop out of their AKCA clubs, but rather to be there for them and help in any way we could, while still being a ZNA person at the same time. We have done that and if you look at the clubs in the Florida area, you will see many ZNASKA members that are holding office in those AKCA clubs. We do not meet frequently as a club and most of our members really like it that way. Since they do not have to contend with going to two club meetings each month (AKCA and ZNA) and we do not have to keep trying to work in our meetings around an AKCA meeting, this all works for this club. We enjoy our friendship thru scales the most when we are at Koi shows and I think most know that SKA is VERY active in helping clubs put on Koi shows by volunteering our backs, knowledge and often supplies.

Lastly the competing shows perception. In order to generate funds for our club, the board was approached by a member living in the Naples area and told that he thought a Koi show would go over very well down there and since we have many members in the southern part of the state, we told him to go forward with a fact finding and we would consider it. He came back with not only a positive response, but also with some sponsorships that would really help us get this first show going and make it a great time for all members of our club. The whole premise of this show was to be a pre-set up show site done with hired labor where not only the vendors, but the club workers would be able to show up, drop their Koi into tanks ready and waiting. When the show was over, take your Koi and go home. No one from the club needed to stick around and do a show site breakdown and then a 6 hour drive home after the show. We had hired labor do that for us. It was great to relax at a show for a change. Anyone who helps put on a Koi show will know exactly what I mean. Once this was set, it was a matter of when and all parties felt it would be best in the fall or spring. Since we already have our members involved to a great degree in the spring CFKS and some members with the spring Tropical Koi Show, it had to be in the fall. When you take into account the timing for a fall show, the later the better do to spawning concerns in southern Florida. The only date we could get was a coin toss as to whether that would be the same date a the NFKC show and certainly close to it regardless. Please keep in mind that this show was originally setup as a small show for our members to have a little fun and get together, as I explain further. At the time we were under the perception (right or wrong) that the NFKC was looking at a couple of things and those being:
1. Move the location of the show, which meant most likley a smaller show
2. Changing the date of the show
3. Both 1 and 2
4. Not having the big two day show

We looked at the distance between the two shows and how we would effect the NFKC and made some conclusions/decisions.

1. None of our members had intended to show at NFKC this year anyhow and most likely going to attend and try to help out if we did. Why? We felt it was time the club got back to some of their own folks being able to take some top awards. It is not fun for someone from outside a club to come in every year and take the top awards and go back home. This often leaves the sponsoring club asking themselves, why are we putting on a show for someone else to come in, take away all the major awards and we don't even get a good profit off of the show
2. We would NOT invite (this was an vendor come by invitation only show) any vendors that would be going to the NFKC. Everyone we had at our show was upfront with us in that they would NOT be going to the NFKC show this year even we didn't have a show in Naples. The only exception to this was Brady and he just got his dates and shows mixed up. Brady bowed out and we put absolutely no pressure on him to come or to even try to get someone from his magazine to come and cover the show (you have no idea how much we would have liked to have KoiFixx cover our show).
3. We deliberately kept the advertising and board chatter about our show low key. If you have ever seen the chatter we do for CFKS or MAKC you would realize we did not push hard at all.
4. We had some folks coming to the show that we could utilize as speakers at the show while they were there at most likely no extra cost. They agreed to speak, but in the end we found that in the venue we had, most people really weren't interested in a seminar program. Maybe this will change in the future as the area gets more in tune with Koi keeping.
5. Our goal all along was to have a good Keynote speaker and with the sponsorships we got we were able to bring in a relatively inexpensive, well liked and actually a person friend to several of our club members, that being Brett Rowley.

Even with all of this, we could not control the growth of this show and in the end it was the physical setting of the show that limited the participation or I think it would have been even larger. Let me also state that, to the best of my knowledge, every person that took a show tank and displayed their Koi were members of the SKA (there may be one exception, I can't be sure).

So I fail to see how our show could have detracted or competed with the NFKC. Certainly not when it came to anyone entering Koi in the show and I doubt much in the area of attending the show. I would also like to note that we have members of SKA that also belong to NFKC and some of those members chose to attend/show Koi at NFKC and we are proud that they were able to do so.

That is the story and about as far as I am going to take it. I really get tired of trying to defend these sort of things on the boards. I hope this will satisfy everyone as I do not intend to further post about this.

Rod L.

[koicluboftheair]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It was certainly complete and seemed very sincere. I still missed why the dates had to be the same, but that is in the past and everything must move forward. You don't have to look to change history in observing and analyzing it. Likewise, I didn't ask about the monies from the CFKS show, which as you stated is only your club members concern. Maybe more clubs can follow the SKA example and have shows where as you note you can put your fish in the show tank, sit back and enjoy. How do you do that with no money? Of course Joe has explained that one of your benefactors had his employees do that, which is amazing and a wonderful contribution to SKA. By reputation Rod you have been a big supporter of the hobby and a myriad of clubs along with the other SKA leaders that continue as you note to sit on boards in governing positions of the individual clubs. Yet, as there are divergent interests amongst separate clubs the perception that there are koi fiefdoms will continue. There is a long standing philosophical argument over whether cooperation or competition is the countervailing force in nature. Either way I'll still love my koi and promote the hobby just like you.

Cheers!

Originally Posted by Rod L.

John,
As much as I hate to air these sort of misunderstandings, since they always will still be misinterpreted by some and just start more bad rumours, I guess I will make a brief attempt to straighten a few things out.

The SKA derives NO money rom the CFKS show and the same holds true for the other member clubs. Yes the show makes money, but ALL money goes back into the show to perpetuate the show and make the show better. By better I mean getting speakers from a distance away that must be paid for by the show. Eventually we will outgrow the show site and have to move. We have a very good deal with the hotel at this show site, but I doubt we could find anything comparable in the area, so that takes more money. If you are constantly taking all monies and giving it back to the member clubs, you start out each show with a bankroll of zero or a small amount from each club to start each show. Again this is something that is really none of anyone else's business except for the clubs that were and are now involved with show and that is as far as I am going to take that issue. Everything that was done was for the perpetuating a show a in Central Florida, making the show better, being able to legally own some equiment as a show and having some sort of protection for the show legally and financially. The financially goes much deeper than this, but should not be the concern of anyone else.

Now, the show dates and all that concern. Since ZNASKA is a member of a show (CFKS) that generates no monies for the member clubs, SKA has a hard time raising funds for the treasury. The simple answer to this is to hold a Koi show and be able to do raffles, auctions etc. We are a very deomographic group and therefore do not hold montly meetings, which could also be used to raise funds. In founding this club, we were very specific with our members in telling them that we DID NOT want them to drop out of their AKCA clubs, but rather to be there for them and help in any way we could, while still being a ZNA person at the same time. We have done that and if you look at the clubs in the Florida area, you will see many ZNASKA members that are holding office in those AKCA clubs. We do not meet frequently as a club and most of our members really like it that way. Since they do not have to contend with going to two club meetings each month (AKCA and ZNA) and we do not have to keep trying to work in our meetings around an AKCA meeting, this all works for this club. We enjoy our friendship thru scales the most when we are at Koi shows and I think most know that SKA is VERY active in helping clubs put on Koi shows by volunteering our backs, knowledge and often supplies.

Lastly the competing shows perception. In order to generate funds for our club, the board was approached by a member living in the Naples area and told that he thought a Koi show would go over very well down there and since we have many members in the southern part of the state, we told him to go forward with a fact finding and we would consider it. He came back with not only a positive response, but also with some sponsorships that would really help us get this first show going and make it a great time for all members of our club. The whole premise of this show was to be a pre-set up show site done with hired labor where not only the vendors, but the club workers would be able to show up, drop their Koi into tanks ready and waiting. When the show was over, take your Koi and go home. No one from the club needed to stick around and do a show site breakdown and then a 6 hour drive home after the show. We had hired labor do that for us. It was great to relax at a show for a change. Anyone who helps put on a Koi show will know exactly what I mean. Once this was set, it was a matter of when and all parties felt it would be best in the fall or spring. Since we already have our members involved to a great degree in the spring CFKS and some members with the spring Tropical Koi Show, it had to be in the fall. When you take into account the timing for a fall show, the later the better do to spawning concerns in southern Florida. The only date we could get was a coin toss as to whether that would be the same date a the NFKC show and certainly close to it regardless. Please keep in mind that this show was originally setup as a small show for our members to have a little fun and get together, as I explain further. At the time we were under the perception (right or wrong) that the NFKC was looking at a couple of things and those being:
1. Move the location of the show, which meant most likley a smaller show
2. Changing the date of the show
3. Both 1 and 2
4. Not having the big two day show

We looked at the distance between the two shows and how we would effect the NFKC and made some conclusions/decisions.

1. None of our members had intended to show at NFKC this year anyhow and most likely going to attend and try to help out if we did. Why? We felt it was time the club got back to some of their own folks being able to take some top awards. It is not fun for someone from outside a club to come in every year and take the top awards and go back home. This often leaves the sponsoring club asking themselves, why are we putting on a show for someone else to come in, take away all the major awards and we don't even get a good profit off of the show
2. We would NOT invite (this was an vendor come by invitation only show) any vendors that would be going to the NFKC. Everyone we had at our show was upfront with us in that they would NOT be going to the NFKC show this year even we didn't have a show in Naples. The only exception to this was Brady and he just got his dates and shows mixed up. Brady bowed out and we put absolutely no pressure on him to come or to even try to get someone from his magazine to come and cover the show (you have no idea how much we would have liked to have KoiFixx cover our show).
3. We deliberately kept the advertising and board chatter about our show low key. If you have ever seen the chatter we do for CFKS or MAKC you would realize we did not push hard at all.
4. We had some folks coming to the show that we could utilize as speakers at the show while they were there at most likely no extra cost. They agreed to speak, but in the end we found that in the venue we had, most people really weren't interested in a seminar program. Maybe this will change in the future as the area gets more in tune with Koi keeping.
5. Our goal all along was to have a good Keynote speaker and with the sponsorships we got we were able to bring in a relatively inexpensive, well liked and actually a person friend to several of our club members, that being Brett Rowley.

Even with all of this, we could not control the growth of this show and in the end it was the physical setting of the show that limited the participation or I think it would have been even larger. Let me also state that, to the best of my knowledge, every person that took a show tank and displayed their Koi were members of the SKA (there may be one exception, I can't be sure).

So I fail to see how our show could have detracted or competed with the NFKC. Certainly not when it came to anyone entering Koi in the show and I doubt much in the area of attending the show. I would also like to note that we have members of SKA that also belong to NFKC and some of those members chose to attend/show Koi at NFKC and we are proud that they were able to do so.

That is the story and about as far as I am going to take it. I really get tired of trying to defend these sort of things on the boards. I hope this will satisfy everyone as I do not intend to further post about this.

Rod L.

[MikeM]

For the benefit of non-Floridians not familiar with Florida's geography, Florida is a long state. The North Florida Koi Club show was held just south of Jacksonville in the northeastern part of the state. Naples is in the southwestern part of the state. There is no locally established club in the southwestern part of Florida. (That is, no local organization to put on a show.) The drive between Jacksonville and Naples is approximately 6.25 hours without a rest stop (or 7+ hours if you obey the speed limits ). The issue here really concerns folks from the central part of the state choosing between two shows. It was unfortunate timing and hopefully the overlap will be avoided next year.

[RayJordan]

John,
You are starting to appear to have an agenda. Just look at the title you gave this thread.

Every club show that I am aware of does everything possible to set the dates of their show not to conflict with other shows/koi events. Why make a difficult event to organize and administer even more difficult? It is hard enought to get vendors and koi hobbyists to bring koi to a show without competing for them on the same weekend as another koi show. The same weekend as the Texas Koi & Fancy Goldfish show this year there were two other koi shows. To my knowledge we set our show dates before any others were published and have used this same weekend for several years.

There are many things that control the show dates. Site/hotel availability, other local events that might compete with show, organizer/workers personal calendars, judges availability, etc. etc. You would be amazed how difficult it is to pick a weekend that meets even the majority of these needs.

The TKFGS show will be the 2nd weekend in October in 2007. I hope our show will be the only koi show that weekend in the U.S. If there are others that same weekend I will assume that they did not pick that same weekend to compete with us but because they were also trying to meet the needs of their members.

I commend the SKAZNA organizers for reccognizing and trying to minimize the impact of their show on the NF Koi Show. They should be patted on the back for bringing a new koi show to a new area of the country instead of being harrassed and challenged to explain their clubs' private business.

[keokoi]

Some inteeresting reading.. I think the day when koi clubs compete for dates would be the day koi hobby has taken off and would be on prime time .

But truthfully its hard enough to get a venue to host the show that fits the budget and then the dates. I think that National show that didn't take off over lapped a show in a different state. Some were hurt but like most it was a misunderstanding that was resolved.


Looking at he geography of the state and being more than 5 hours away should be no big deal. In the big state of California we have shows overlap from Norcal to SoCal but we all try to fit it in.

I am happy to see many shows go on at once. It's a better chance to get more involved in the hobby and coer more ground.

Isn't that what doing a show is? Too promote the hobby and education to others?

Joe

[Bern]

Originally Posted by MikeM

For the benefit of non-Floridians not familiar with Florida's geography, Florida is a long state. The North Florida Koi Club show was held just south of Jacksonville in the northeastern part of the state. Naples is in the southwestern part of the state. There is no locally established club in the southwestern part of Florida. (That is, no local organization to put on a show.) The drive between Jacksonville and Naples is approximately 6.25 hours without a rest stop (or 7+ hours if you obey the speed limits ). The issue here really concerns folks from the central part of the state choosing between two shows. It was unfortunate timing and hopefully the overlap will be avoided next year.

Based on those times I don't see a problem. Over here on the last week of August there are three shows. One is 200 miles from mine the other 300. There are one or two Koi-kichi that will visit one show on one day and the other on the next. This has been going on for almost 10 years. This particular weekend has a public holiday on the Monday. One of the clubs holds their shows on the Sat & Sun, The other two (incl mine) do Sun & Mon. Last year one of the judges judged at both the others and then visited ours on the Monday for a rest.

With those sort of distances involved we don't compete for resources and all three clubs have been able to thrive, and the public has a choice.

rgds

[koicluboftheair]

I think there are lots of ways to do education and promote the hobby aside from a koi show. Having been involved in other sorts of clubs such as the North Florida Shell Club for instance(this is Florida after all) I know my mother for instance has given countless lectures in public school classes about the role of mollusks in their ecosystem and demonstrated differences between them within the phylogenetic order and amongst the classes such as gastropoda, bivalvia, etc. She did that as a club volunteer. Likewise, they participate in school science fairs providing awards from the club to environmentally related projects. Associates that put on the Siver Sailfish Derby at the West Palm Beach Fishing Club take inner city youth out fishing, create artificial reefs, and have tagged more billfish for NOAA and Wood's Hole research than any other organization.

Yet, having multiple koi show competitions on the same weekend between koi hobbyists that typically work together on the same shows in the same state showing their fish many competing for top awards seems somewhat different than pure education or promoting "the hobby."

I'm not trying to promote either North Florida or the Southern Koi Association over the other here, but my perception that "the hobby" was not enhanced in this situation is a perception that is reflected and shared by other non-SKA members believe me,...or not.

Plus, how many Cali clubs actually have their shows on the same weekend and is the spirit of comraderie enhanced by it? As the hobby is some 10X the size in Cali of any other state maybe it isn't such an issue there with so many vendors and koi and pond enthusiasts. Compare that to states that have only one club and consider the potential impact of having another at-large club have a show in that state the same weekend? Or if one prefers not to consider such, but suggest all is well in River City and everything is up, up, and away being wildly optimistic, positive and unquestioning of intentions etc. that is as reasonable and rational an approach as any I suppose.

John

Originally Posted by keokoi

Some inteeresting reading.. I think the day when koi clubs compete for dates would be the day koi hobby has taken off and would be on prime time .

But truthfully its hard enough to get a venue to host the show that fits the budget and then the dates. I think that National show that didn't take off over lapped a show in a different state. Some were hurt but like most it was a misunderstanding that was resolved.


Looking at he geography of the state and being more than 5 hours away should be no big deal. In the big state of California we have shows overlap from Norcal to SoCal but we all try to fit it in.

I am happy to see many shows go on at once. It's a better chance to get more involved in the hobby and coer more ground.

Isn't that what doing a show is? Too promote the hobby and education to others?

Joe

[cppond]

I wouldn't think that double booking is an issue unless it happens regularly, and then , only if it creates a true conflict.

Does this happen regularly?

[koicluboftheair]

So sorry you feel I'm harassing SKA that instead should be commended. Yet, I don't know why you would bring up the point that you hope there are no other shows the weekend of your club show. Is that supposed to be supportive of whose point? As for having an agenda I do and it certainly isn't only to get along or cowtow to the koi hobby powers that be. I spend my own time and money promoting many clubs and their functions including your clubs. Thanks for affording me the opportunity to promote TKFG and Project KHV. Someone asked me just last week in what I took as an offensive posture why their event wasn't highlighted like others they thought were paid ads. As I told this person no club has to pay us at the Koi Club of the Air to promote their events and I'm usually contacting them asking to promote their events. Call me crazy,...

BTW: The club event that I was questioned for supposedly having not promoted had been.

Originally Posted by RayJordan

John,
You are starting to appear to have an agenda. Just look at the title you gave this thread.

Every club show that I am aware of does everything possible to set the dates of their show not to conflict with other shows/koi events. Why make a difficult event to organize and administer even more difficult? It is hard enought to get vendors and koi hobbyists to bring koi to a show without competing for them on the same weekend as another koi show. The same weekend as the Texas Koi & Fancy Goldfish show this year there were two other koi shows. To my knowledge we set our show dates before any others were published and have used this same weekend for several years.

There are many things that control the show dates. Site/hotel availability, other local events that might compete with show, organizer/workers personal calendars, judges availability, etc. etc. You would be amazed how difficult it is to pick a weekend that meets even the majority of these needs.

The TKFGS show will be the 2nd weekend in October in 2007. I hope our show will be the only koi show that weekend in the U.S. If there are others that same weekend I will assume that they did not pick that same weekend to compete with us but because they were also trying to meet the needs of their members.

I commend the SKAZNA organizers for reccognizing and trying to minimize the impact of their show on the NF Koi Show. They should be patted on the back for bringing a new koi show to a new area of the country instead of being harrassed and challenged to explain their clubs' private business.