koi-Bonsai similar lessons to be learned

[dick benbow]

I was reminded today about the blight of those who love either the hobby of Bonsai or Koi ( or both) and in the process of learning what factors they have in common.

The one that comes first to mind is the problem of selection. If you love koi and are dying for say a tancho, you might haunt your favorite dealers or the world wide web looking for exactly what you want...with no success.

or if you want a certain species of tree to train to a favorite style (like cascade) you can make the same search as with koi and with the same results. Nada...zilch...zero.."nuthin'".....

and I think the lessons we need to learn from this is to pay our dues and learn what makes a good koi , and that particular color variety, good. What i see playing out is that most koi or bonsai folks have a predetermined idea in mind and they will hunt for it till they are thoroughly frustrated.While they are doing that they are walking by beautiful trees in a different style, totally blind to their existance. Or in the case of our Tancho shopper, they may have walked by a world class Kujacku and didn't even see it.

when your dealing with something living, it's not like the automakers assembly line that has dozens of colors and options of the same model. Maybe a showa breeder had a great year the year before and this year it's his kohaku's that came together. Your friend got a killer showa last year so my gosh your gonna get a killer one yourself this year. You could be very wrong!

Every week, I'm up a weyerhauser bonsai gardens. I'm looking at one of the premier collections in this country from trees from around this world. Your koi dealer when not busy ( stay away from weekends or ask when they have time) can share their knowledge and help you round out your ability to know a good fish when you see one.

My suggestion is this. learn what makes a good koi, don't have a preset idea on what you want. You could even start your koi conversation with your favorite dealer by saying " Could you point out in your opinion what's the best koi you have for my budget of $$$$, and tell me , why"?

hope something I've said here makes sense and helps you out on your next shopping trip

[Brutuscz]

You know ..it's like this in so many hobbies. My wife and I went to an antique auction 2 weeks ago(really her thing more than mine). We won several smaller items and were happy with our purchases. But, I hate sitting there watching things being sold that I know nothing about....and never really knowing if the deal of the century just passed me by. It's the same with koi...You look into a tank of fish and hope you don't miss something outstanding, simply because you didn't know the variety that well.
It almost happened to me this year with an asagi (and you saved me Dick). I listed photo's of 6 asagi and asked your opinions on which one to keep. The one you advised me to keep was not the one I was going to choose. Well, that is the one that won best asagi at the pioneer valley show....it also received oooh's and ahhh's from everyone who saw it during the benching procedure. My point is, I didn't know enough about this variety to make the best decision. I think the goal for all of us is to continue learning, so when we are staring a future champion in the face, we don't let it slip through our fingers!!!

[koiczar]

Dick and Brutuscz

Very well said! I have been into koi for many, many years. I have dabbled in bonsai for as long. Last year, a nursery who specialized in Nigawi and bonsai retired and sold ALL his stocks at VERY REDUCED prices. I purchased 4 black pine bonsai and a Chinensis Juniper. All these are in 15 gallon containers. They hadn't been watered properly for quite some time and were on the verge of dieing. So I began to water and feed them. Whoa, in 2-3 weeks the completely greened up and began to candle profusely. Thus began a new level of training. These trees, by the way, were all over 40 years old and had been trained by the grower for all this time (from seed). I am trying to make a point here and that is this:

Nothing good happens immediately, be it koi or bonsai. Sometimes it takes a very long time for the outcome to start to become noticeable. But when it does, and it has been by your hand, there is nothing that I know of that is more satisfying.

So, I say to all of you, LEARN, LEARN and then LEARN SOME MORE. Buying tosai is one way. There are other ways as well. Sometimes they are better too. Remember, I don't care what anyone tells you, tosai that leave the breeder are not considered his top stocks. Those are kept and grown on for another year or two to confirm his confidence in his breeding program and his culling skills. For that he is rewarded with more money per fish. But, when you think about it, how much did it cost him to keep it another year or three?

Dick

I sometimes wish I lived near you guys up there in Oregon and Washington. There are hardly any bonsai shops left here in the Bay Area. Trying to find Black or White Pines in a nursery here is next to IMPOSSIBLE. I've been to at least 20 retail and wholesale nurseries without success. Azalea and juniper are available in limited supply if you don't mind driving a couple hours to Sacramento, but other than that, if someone knows of anyplace, please let me know.

Mike

[dick benbow]

mike:
The 40 year old items from stock was a great find. Good for you!

We have Bonsai NW here in Seattle and they do a good job of having stock.

Bottom line is all or most of it comes from the growing fields of oregon

[PapaBear]

Good posts...hitting close to home. Having an agenda when you go shopping (for almost anything) can be a good thing if you are prone to impulse buying. Having a co-shopper with a good eye and NO agenda can save you from missing out on something better that wasn't on your list. Just as bad, having a "gotta find one" mentality can cause a determined shopper to buy their predetermined "list item" even if the quality isn't really there. So far, when it comes to Koi we haven't had that problem. Ours seems to be more one of not really having the experienced eye to know what to look for in certain varieties, but hanging around here definitely helps

Mike,
I guess I've been away from California too long. It is difficult for me to picture the Bay Area lacking an abundance of old school Japanese practitioners of the craft . When I was a child there were many older Japanese gentlemen with small greenhouses at their homes, even in the Valley... That generation is nearly gone, and we are much the poorer for it.

[KoiCCAPW]

Papa Bear,
Unfortunatly it's all too true. With the way real estate prices have gone up the last 10-20years, almost all the independant nurseries are gone.
One of the oldest in my town was "Bonsai Nursery", run by two brothers. when they got too old to run it anymore,(or maybe they past away, I'm not sure) it closed. The kids just didn't want to run it themselves.
Sad thing is, it's still empty after closing at least 5 years ago. Nothing's been done with the property. It just sits there, looking sad.

I would guess there are maybe 4 independant nurseries left in the whole valley.
Say hello to ham despot, and windy summers (don't wanna get sued) and good-buy to choice!

[dick benbow]

Lots of changes here in washington state. This used to be a valley of japanese truck farmers but now warehouses sit on what used to be berry farms and vegetables.

We used to have a tiny japanese goods store here in the valley that saved me from running clear into seatlle, But Frank passed away and before the kids could figure out what to do with it an arsenist took the history and building away from us. The owner told me stories of when he and his dad came over on steamers from japan. They started off with about 25, 2-3 inch koi in a milk can, and what they did to keep them alive on the passage (about 2 or 3 made it ) I still have several pieces of ikebana vases I got from him that i still treasure. His ashes are intured in our tiny Pioneer cemetary ( across the street from a giant Fred Meyer Market ) Interesting the history of the USA, as you see the different cultures and what they contributed to the areas they settled in...

[PapaBear]

This one is making me a little bid sadder than I might have thought . Being so far removed (1500 miles and 30 years) it is too easy to be detached from the changes taking place. It is much easier when you can't see it happening all around you, but the sad results are just the same.
In Oklahoma City there is a very quiet but thriving Asian community that has been reinvigorated by the influx of Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants in recent decades. Hopefully it will continue.

[MikeM]

The disappearance of family-owned and operated shops is a reality of the contemporary American economy. Whether it is the nursery trade or pet shops or aquarium shops or any other kind of shop, consumers have voted with their purchases. People will acquire standardized, mass produced items that sell for less, rather than pay what it costs for customized or non-standardized goods. Thirty years ago, Orlando had dozens of specialized nurseries where just about anything not requiring winter cold could be found... one nursery had over a thousand varieties of bromeliads, often just a couple available or maybe even a waiting list to get an offset. Today, the mass market for about 25 hybrids dominates. The same is true of begonia nurseries, fern nurseries, etc., etc. As for aquarium shops, there used to be a dozen where you could place an order for rare species... or for a particular variety of koi. Now, PetSmart, WalMart, Pet Supermarket, Petco and Petland dominate.... more shops, more conveniently located than ever, but all carry just about the same thing and the couple of family operated shops can hardly keep their doors open, especially with hard goods being available super cheap at internet sites. In the end, we all lose due to the loss of the unique and individualized. But, it is the ultimate democracy at work... every time you choose to shop at the big box store rather than paying more and having to visit multiple small shops to get everything on your list, you've voted.

[PapaBear]

Another good reason for us to keep buying all we can from the little private nursury down the road . They have a better selection of better stock, the owner raises most of her plants from seed, and we would have to drive past her greenhouses to get to Wallyworld anyway . (but she doesn't do bonsai )