Help with examples of koi by Bloodline

[Akai-San]

Can anyone help with providing some (pics) examples of koi characteristics by bloodline? Interesting stuff to me right now. Doing research online has led me into dead-end after dead-end when it comes to the older bloodlines. Do they still exist in one shape of form? Would be interesting to learn how breeders shared/crossed breeding stock to try and better stablize or create new bloodlines. Any true examples of the following?

Matsunosuke
Dainichi
Torazo
Sensuke
Kichinai
Sadazo
Jinbei
Manzo/Sakuma

Hey anyone going to the All Japan Show this year? Looking forward to seeing those GIANT koi again...

[dick benbow]

not sure any one of us can get a grasp around what you've asked here. Breeders started with others bloodlines by trading or acquiring breeders (maybe loan) to cross into their own genetics.

Sensuke for example had long big bodies with strong (not pot bellied) stomachs. The Hi was orange and the trouble with this bloodline was it also was common to find redundant Hi developing. Sakai of Hiroshima used this bloodline a lot to develop their kohakus but they do not look anything now as to what defined sensuke as a bloodline back when it was used.

Toshio sakai and his older brother used their dad's developed matsunosuke bloodline. Toshio has kept that pure and also added magoi bloodline to the mix to regenerate size and shape. Now he is developing his latest maruzome red and black. Bloodlines are progressive and ever changing. tastes and standards are ever changing

what's even more interesting in today's world is less and less are breeders exchanging fish for genetics because of KHV. Many of their quality young are not being sold but held back as possible breeders. This will definetely affect the way koi bloodlines are developed and refined in the immediate future.

If I absolutely had to have a sensuke bloodline koi as close to the original as i could find today, I'd probably be going to IIzuka to make a purchase. But in Lieu of where we are today with kohaku, it would be like for a car collector who loves today's expensive sportscars going back to the 70's to pick the top of the line back then. Not the same as today's however.

[dizzyfish]

Dick,
What can you tell us about the Rose bloodline from Sakai? Has that line treed off in different branches, and if so which branch would be considered the most desirable?
Mitch

[Brutuscz]

Well, here is an example of a sadazo sanke (from Genjiro koi farm). It is Characterized by a thick hi plate and deep black sumi. So, it is not supposed to be affected by water quality too much (so I've read). The other issue with Sadazo sanke is they do not get very large...it is an older bloodline, established before we looked to grow monsters in our ponds!!!

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by dizzyfish Dick, What can you tell us about the Rose bloodline from Sakai? Has that line treed off in different branches, and if so which branch would be considered the most desirable? Mitch

You might find this of interest if you haven't seen it before.

http://www.sakai-ff.com/sakaikoi_blood_line2_2_e.html

[Brutuscz]

Well, here is Dainichi. Meant to be skinny and look terrible from age 3-5yrs..because they are not fed for several months each year. Then, as mature adults...they are meant to grow into their bodies with amazing conformation. They are also supposed to have fukurin at over 70cm. The shiroji should have a pottery-like white. This is how they are described by Mr Kodama. I lifted these pics from his website for this exercise.

[Brutuscz]

Matsunosuke...Big, Big, Big...with a dignified appearance. The large body conformation is the priority. Skin quality is secondary..and pattern is the last priority.

[dizzyfish]

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth You might find this of interest if you haven't seen it before. http://www.sakai-ff.com/sakaikoi_blood_line2_2_e.html

Jim,
Thanks for the link, somehow I had not seen it. Did Jessia Rose come from this line? If so which parent(s)?
Mitch

[Brutuscz]

Jinbei Sanke is characterized by large dramatic patches of square sumi (as opposed to sadazo with smaller round patches of sumi). As the Jinbei grow...the large patches can fragment into smaller sections.

[Brutuscz]

Torazo Sanke. The sumi is strong as tosai..then disappears after 2 more years..and can take a blueish appearance. The true sumi will appear at age four and improve until age 5-6yrs. This bloodline was created using a Yagozen bloodline male kohaku with a female sanke.