What is SSA (Specific Surface Area)?

[schildkoi]

Quote: Now in all my threads, you know that I absolutely positively state that if your going to have gravel - it has to be kept clean - or don't use it. I am consistant on this.

John, we both know that the owners of these ponds will not keep them clean. Anyone who thinks that they do is folling themselves. Even if the surface of the rocks looks clean the underlayers are not and thus maintenance most often is left undone.

Quote: It was also mentioned in this thread that stiring up gravel releases harmful gasses and organics into the water. Yes, you are correct - no arguement there. The AMOUNT of gasses and organics is extremely small and not harmful when cleaned on a monthly basis - 1/4 of the ponds' gravel every week. I am not talking about doing this to the "once a year cleaned ponds" of the Aquascape variety - I am talking about how aquariums are kept clean without harming the fish inside.

So now, 1/4 of the gravel has to be cleaned weekly? Do you honestly think that ANYONE will do this?

Quote: An additional method of protection could be the use of a pond vac for this type of gravel cleaning. "Fluff" the gravel with a water jet infront of the suction hose of a pond vac. The "soiled" water can be removed easily and not introduced into the pond at large.

So you are advocating the septic pumping once a week verses constantly flushing?

Quote: Once last comment was made regarding show quality koi and rocks & gravel. I am on redord as saying "I, and Russell Watergardens do not recomend koi that are to be grown and raised for the purpose of showing or competing be kept in any pond with objects that could cause physical harm as a result of collision - rocks includled." You have no arguement from me.

John, the actual comment was in referenced to family pets or show quality koi. BOTH deserve environemnts free of objects that could cause physical harm, don't you think?

And as for your conclusions regarding the surface area of rocks. Yes they can be calculated, but one forgets that only a portion of the top layer is exposed and less of the second and hardley any of the third layer. That and the fact that most water movements as you describe are surface and localized currents, let along the almost immediate fowling of any exposed gravel surface area to begin with. That in comparison to w Koi pond with TPRs, diffuser drains and smooth side surface area that is not only supplied constantly but also free of fowling debris and your arguement/logic here goes down the toilet so to speak. (pun intended) Now another factor you may not have considered is algae growth on your rocks at 3 ft of depth. This also inhibits the biofilm reducing such on your gravel immensly. On a Koi pond of depth, say 6', alge growth is inhibited and in many cases non existent and thus allowing for some biofilm. This is another reason why bio chambers are better left covered so as to reduce the algae potential on the media itself.

Steve

[John Russell]

Hello Steve,

Where have you been all my life? You're so fun! I'm being serious, I love intelectual stimulation.

Do all people keep their ponds spotless? No. You are absolutely correct. Am I agreeing with you on your comments on smooth liner, algae, and biofilm? Yes. You're right on the money.

Stepping back for a moment and looking at the aquarium industry. Aquariums require monthly cleaning. Most people that have them do the cleaning themselves, or hire it done - but it still gets done on the majority of aquaiums. Do some aquaium owners neglect this? Sure they do. Does this mean an aquarium system manufacturer, or retailer should stop selling aquariums?

Step forward again. You are absolutely right on all your points about gravel - I'm not disagreeing with you - I am pointing out that if the gravel is kept clean like that of aquariums it can be beneficial to pond - if nothing else than cosmeticaly.

So where does this leave us? As a manufacture of filtration systems, and to all the dealers and contractors that sell our products - do they stop selling outdoor aquarium type Hybid ponds?

We as resposible citizens can do our best at the manufacturing level, the wholesale level, and the retail level to provide the best products, service, information, and education to the end-using public - but beyond that....what can be done?

Inviting koi clubs AND water garden clubs into our stores to learn from each other is a crutial part of the KKF/RWG partnership. Sharing information is the essence of learning.

None of us can force people to clean their ponds - and none of us can force what type of pond people to have. This is a free country, people like making their own choices. We can, however, work together to find the best solutions to the problems that can and do arise.

"Fluffing" a quarter of you pond's gravel each week takes about 5 minutes. The marjority of R&G Hybrid ponds are not larger than 25'x25' (625 square feet) - so "fluffing" a 10'x15' (150 sq.ft.) section is super easy.

Saying that even a "pet grade" koi will definitely harm itself on a rock in the pond is like saying a dog will definitely hurt itself on a tree in the backyard, or a cat on a table leg. Can these things happen, yes. I've seen our cats chase each other through the house and run head-first into the dining room table leg. Same thing with my brother's dog chasing a Robin - ran smack into a tree. So, should I get rid of my dining room table and my brother chop down his trees? Same can be said of rocks with koi. Remember, virtually all aquariums around the world have rocks together with fish - there is no denying that fact. So why would it be OK for aquariums from gold fish tanks to commercial shark reefs to mix rocks and fish but not koi?

What we have to look at is what would cause the koi to run into the rock. Usually its a result of "flashing". Flashing, as you all know, is a result of irritants on the koi's skin or gills. You people are the experts at knowing about salting and such. So if we make sure that water plants are treated for parasites prior to introducing them into a pond with koi, maintaining .03% salt will help dehydrate many parasites while not harming most plants, keeping the surfaces of the pond clean - liner or gravel - and keeping our filters free of detritus so they can do their job of removing ammonia - we are all moving in the right direction. This is "old news" to you people I know - but the majority has not been exposed to this - and this is my mission.

Someone earlier made a comment about the people here on this forum make up a very small percentage of the koi owners in this country. The majority of people that simply want koi in a pond that looks like part of the landscape. So I as a business man, I know the value of information from the experts such as yourselves - and adapting that information to fit the majority market. People can agree or disagree with that statement - but at least I'm honest about it. I truely believe that trying to improve the products and services from within a market is the best method to keeping more fish alive. Trying to eliminate the market hasn't worked, will not work, and only alienates people. So with your help - we'll be able to change it from within.

If you look around the country, and view other forums - you'll see that my constant talking about backflushing, cleaning gravel, and SSA is taking hold. It never has before. Never before has anyone, or any company caused an shift in the tone or the R&G industry. We've got a long way to go - and so I'll just keep on keepin on.

So how can we combine what you people know into what the majority wants? Thats what I'm trying to do.....with your help of course.

Thanks again.
Sincerely,
John Russell

[schildkoi]

Quote: Do all people keep their ponds spotless? No. You are absolutely correct. Am I agreeing with you on your comments on smooth liner, algae, and biofilm? Yes. You're right on the money.

If you are agreeing, then why the fuss previously and on your website about the misleading effects of added surface area for biofilm on gravel bttomed ponds?

Quote: Stepping back for a moment and looking at the aquarium industry. Aquariums require monthly cleaning. Most people that have them do the cleaning themselves, or hire it done - but it still gets done on the majority of aquaiums. Do some aquaium owners neglect this? Sure they do. Does this mean an aquarium system manufacturer, or retailer should stop selling aquariums?

John, comparing aquarium cleaning to that of a pond is apples and oranges. The amount of effort from one to the other offers no real comparison. For a pond, the ease of maintenance is just as if not lore important than the actual function of such since if its easy, it gets doen and done more regularly than a system that is difficult to maintain.

Quote: Step forward again. You are absolutely right on all your points about gravel - I'm not disagreeing with you - I am pointing out that if the gravel is kept clean like that of aquariums it can be beneficial to pond - if nothing else than cosmeticaly.

John, this is where the fundemental disagreement is. The gravel will not be kept clean, between algae and waste, there is no benefit, not even cosmetically. I would challenge anyone to find anywhere near a substantial number of these ponds that are kept clean.

Quote: So where does this leave us? As a manufacture of filtration systems, and to all the dealers and contractors that sell our products - do they stop selling outdoor aquarium type Hybid ponds?

Basically, as they are now, yes, if they are advocating Koi to be put into them.

Quote: We as resposible citizens can do our best at the manufacturing level, the wholesale level, and the retail level to provide the best products, service, information, and education to the end-using public - but beyond that....what can be done?

John, based soley on your website, you have a little more learning to do in order to understand the design concepts that you operate with are not and never will be acceptable for Koi. Once you come to that same conclusion and begin to educate your customers, you will be in a much better position.

Quote: Inviting koi clubs AND water garden clubs into our stores to learn from each other is a crutial part of the KKF/RWG partnership. Sharing information is the essence of learning.

No doubt here John, but the learning will only go as far as the knowledge base of the teachers, currently a shortcoming it would appear.

Quote: None of us can force people to clean their ponds - and none of us can force what type of pond people to have. This is a free country, people like making their own choices. We can, however, work together to find the best solutions to the problems that can and do arise.

You are making my point for me John. Since we can'tforce people to keep their ponds clean, we should be providing designs that take this into account and make it easier to maintain, unlike what you are currently advocating.

Quote: "Fluffing" a quarter of you pond's gravel each week takes about 5 minutes. The marjority of R&G Hybrid ponds are not larger than 25'x25' (625 square feet) - so "fluffing" a 10'x15' (150 sq.ft.) section is super easy.

Hmmm, 5 minutes to "fluff" huh. I thought earlier you mentioned also using a pond vac as fluffed? I am thinking 5 minutes is more than just a tad optomistic.

Quote: Saying that even a "pet grade" koi will definitely harm itself on a rock in the pond is like saying a dog will definitely hurt itself on a tree in the backyard, or a cat on a table leg. Can these things happen, yes. I've seen our cats chase each other through the house and run head-first into the dining room table leg. Same thing with my brother's dog chasing a Robin - ran smack into a tree. So, should I get rid of my dining room table and my brother chop down his trees? Same can be said of rocks with koi. Remember, virtually all aquariums around the world have rocks together with fish - there is no denying that fact. So why would it be OK for aquariums from gold fish tanks to commercial shark reefs to mix rocks and fish but not koi?

John, I never said a koi would "definitely" injure themselves on rocks. Jagged rocks increase this risk however as does shollow ponds since the flight response of the Koi is limited. In additon, we are talking Koi which typically grow in excess of 24 inches when supplied a proper environemnt. These are NOT aquarium fish and the graval and or rock proportionally sized to that of a Koi in a Koipond and the volume involved is totally different.

Quote: What we have to look at is what would cause the koi to run into the rock. Usually its a result of "flashing". Flashing, as you all know, is a result of irritants on the koi's skin or gills. You people are the experts at knowing about salting and such. So if we make sure that water plants are treated for parasites prior to introducing them into a pond with koi, maintaining .03% salt will help dehydrate many parasites while not harming most plants, keeping the surfaces of the pond clean - liner or gravel - and keeping our filters free of detritus so they can do their job of removing ammonia - we are all moving in the right direction. This is "old news" to you people I know - but the majority has not been exposed to this - and this is my mission.

Ahhh John, you advocate maintaining .3% salt? You do realize that salt itself is an irratant to koi, right? Its benefits are greatly exagerated and there isn't a common parasite that effects koi that wouldn't laugh at .3% Likewise it has little effect on most common forms of algae. Flashing, even in a healthy pond is more likely due to changes in the photosynthisis process during early morning and late afternoon due to algae growth, more common and more abundent in shallower ponds as a percent to total volume.

Quote: Someone earlier made a comment about the people here on this forum make up a very small percentage of the koi owners in this country. The majority of people that simply want koi in a pond that looks like part of the landscape. So I as a business man, I know the value of information from the experts such as yourselves - and adapting that information to fit the majority market. People can agree or disagree with that statement - but at least I'm honest about it. I truely believe that trying to improve the products and services from within a market is the best method to keeping more fish alive. Trying to eliminate the market hasn't worked, will not work, and only alienates people. So with your help - we'll be able to change it from within.

John, I have no problem with your vision as stated. I have't evaluated any of your products either. This isn't really about them, its about the design in which you install those products, a group of designs that all need some work.

Quote: If you look around the country, and view other forums - you'll see that my constant talking about backflushing, cleaning gravel, and SSA is taking hold. It never has before. Never before has anyone, or any company caused an shift in the tone or the R&G industry. We've got a long way to go - and so I'll just keep on keepin on.

John, please do not lure yourself into a false sense of security in any "improvements" you think you have. From what I can gather based on your writings and website, your thoughts on SSA is not totally accurate, nor is your thoughts on gravel or cleaning.

Quote: So how can we combine what you people know into what the majority wants? Thats what I'm trying to do.....with your help of course. Thanks again. Sincerely, John Russell

Kinda simple John, Educate people what koi are and what environmental requirements they have. Then utilize simple koi pond design criteria such as bottom drains, turn over rates etc and lose the graval.

Steve
Last edited by John Russell : 1 Hour Ago at 06:37 AM. Reason: text

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[KoiCop]

it might or might not surprise you to learn that as a group this board focuses not on the subsistence level, but on helping our koi to achieve their genetic potential. Stupendous size and stupefying color . . . these are our goals.

For us, it's no longer about having to hurry up and learn the nitrogen cycle before our koi die. We don't go through iterations of sick fish, sick pond, whoops, back to the pet store.

Rule #1: If it's still in your system -- anywhere in your system -- then it might as well still be rotting at the bottom of your pond and poisoning your koi, SSA be damned. If one learns nothing else, learn that and learn it well.

For if one has a proper koi pond and keeps it clean, flushes one's settlement and mechanical filtration daily, and performs daily water changes, why then the biofiltration can be handled by just about any media this side of dog poop. SSA is fun to discuss, and Childers can do it in his sleep -- but frankly it's something that's in the rearview mirror for most of us.

Of far more importance, and what many of us worry about the most, is eliminating the nitrates, DOCs, TOCs and POCs that can inhibit our koi from reaching their full genetic potential. JR teaches that the primary way this can be achieved is through the balanced addition of new water to one's pond's mellow water. Too much raw, new water and the koi will suffer -- too much exhausted, mellow water and the koi will suffer. His apt analogy is a stick shift auto on a hill where the driver must perfectly balance the gas and the clutch to achieve stability. Easier said than done with a pond (for most of us).

Hopefully these kinds of Zen asides won't detract from your enjoyment of your SSA thread. Don

[John Russell]

Hello Steve,

I'll be at your koi show in March. Also, we should be holding the Grand Opening of our new Flagship Store around that time as well. I'd like to consult with you prior to that for a koi pond display at our store. Built from the ground-up to your specs using our products - how'bout that?

We'll agree to disagree on the use of rocks or gravel in Hybrid ponds and goldfish water gardens. What was started as a thread about SSA of biofilters has been turned into everyone's here favorite debate on the validity of R&G. Until everone agrees that all aquariums from the Shark Reef at Madalay Bay Resort in Las Vegas to the aquarium in my dentist's office has to remove the rocks and gravel for the safety of the fish - we will never see eye to eye on that. So the arguement is over. All that is left to be said on the topic is: come and see our Hybrids in action for yourself. Nothing I am saying about the topic is sinking in with any of you. That is fine, I respect your opinions. I truely do. We'll simply agree to disagree on that topic and move on.

At the koi show, we'll show you our bead filters, skimmers, centrifugal pumps, and our Hydro Rock columns. I'll want your honest opinions - and any suggestions you may have on how to improve them for your applications.

With regards to koi in gravel ponds. Nothing that you or I can ever say will put a stop to it. So what I have done is make drastic improvements to the systems that are marketed everywhere today. I encourage you to go to a variety of pond shops in your area and look at and physically touch the Aquascape Biofalls, Pondsweep Purifalls, Savio Livingponds, Little Giant Bio Vort, and all the other brands from Nursery Pro, Atlantic, and Pond-Eco. Then take a look at one of our systems. Look at it. Kick it around. Look at its function. Then compare our system to all the hugely popular systems I mentioned above. You will see what the rest of the industry is seeing.

Our Hybrid systems are to the R&G industry what High Definition is to the television industry.

Oh, and don't forget to take a look at our koi pond products (bead filters, skimmers, and centrifugal pumps - our Hydro Columns can also add a new cosmetic dimension to your ponds).

One thing that many of you here are overlooking is that you are talking directly to a national manufacturer that will be opening retail/wholesale outlets across the country starting in later 2007. You can have a direct influence on products that are sold in our stores.

You can't stop people from putting koi in R&G ponds. What we can do is work together to create an information program, and a step-stage format of koi keeping from novice to your level that will be featured in all of our stores nation-wide. Not forgeting the steps in the middle and the people that absolutely, positively have to have R&G in their ponds with koi.

Steve, lets get together to see what we can build at our Flagship Store. We can name the pond we build here after you, and we'll publish the design and give you credit as the "designer" on our web site - and provide all your contact information to the world. We'll photograph every step of the process for instruction manuals and our web site. We will of course be using our bead filters, skimmers, and centrifugal pumps, we'll also use Emperor Aquatics UV's, and what ever bottom drain you prefer. We can build settling chambers to your specs, and we'll use our media. The pond design has to pass the city of Redmond's permit requirements for safety in a public place, and we can't make it out of concrete because that would be considered a permanent alteration to the property and that is not allowed in our lease on the property. The pond will also be stocked with koi from the Kodama Koi Farm. This is the guidelines inwhich the pond must be built. A few hoops I know, but a business has to follow guidlines set by the City inwhich it operates, and under the lease they sign on the property.

If we can make it work,that would be the definition of "working together"!

See you all soon,
Sincerely,
John Russell
President/CEO Russell Watergardens

[Auntiesue]

Oh Steve, PLEASE take him up on his offer!! PPPLLLLEEEAAASSSSEEEE!!!

[mitten]

Ah, but Sue, already a part of the beef is that the Kodamas' names are lending weight to the claims and practices of Mr. Raw Meat, it seems without their fully understanding what they've endorsed. Can't you see the problem with having the"Childers' Koi USA" model koipond offered with "Taro's Niigata Pack" in it?

"Oh, I see what you are saying , Maam," says the helpful, non commissioned, salesperson of high level, "You say the koi are beautiful and the rocks are beautiful too, and if we will just combine them you'll take a Childers' Special for home and one for the office, too? SOLD! And Good News, by putting in gravel and eliminating those troublesome bottom drains your price goes down!"

Let's make it much more crass and cross-boardish and call it "Taro's Herd." (JNorth please insert PukeyBarfThingy here and as a default suffix every time someone calls their fish a herd. PukeyBarfThingy)

Rest assured though, Mr. Childers is dedicated to the poverty created by honest work, and as such is properly unimpeachable.

Mickey the windowman

[schildkoi]

Mickey, you are too funny.

John,

Quote: I'll be at your koi show in March. Also, we should be holding the Grand Opening of our new Flagship Store around that time as well. I'd like to consult with you prior to that for a koi pond display at our store. Built from the ground-up to your specs using our products - how'bout that?

My koi show in March? Ahhhhhh, what show would that be?

Quote: We'll agree to disagree on the use of rocks or gravel in Hybrid ponds and goldfish water gardens. What was started as a thread about SSA of biofilters has been turned into everyone's here favorite debate on the validity of R&G. Until everone agrees that all aquariums from the Shark Reef at Madalay Bay Resort in Las Vegas to the aquarium in my dentist's office has to remove the rocks and gravel for the safety of the fish - we will never see eye to eye on that. So the arguement is over. All that is left to be said on the topic is: come and see our Hybrids in action for yourself. Nothing I am saying about the topic is sinking in with any of you. That is fine, I respect your opinions. I truely do. We'll simply agree to disagree on that topic and move on.

First of all, I wasn't the one who brought graval into this discussion. John, you did when claiming the added beneficial SSA effects of such. I simply pointed out that that advocacy simply didn't hold water (pun fully intended). Also, I still have a hard time with you making comparisons to aquariums with totally different design and operating dynamics to that of your designs.

Quote: At the koi show, we'll show you our bead filters, skimmers, centrifugal pumps, and our Hydro Rock columns. I'll want your honest opinions - and any suggestions you may have on how to improve them for your applications.

I'd be happy to discuss these things with you, as soon as I figure out what koi show you are talking about in March. I am currently not scheduled to be at a koi show in March.

Quote: With regards to koi in gravel ponds. Nothing that you or I can ever say will put a stop to it. So what I have done is make drastic improvements to the systems that are marketed everywhere today. I encourage you to go to a variety of pond shops in your area and look at and physically touch the Aquascape Biofalls, Pondsweep Purifalls, Savio Livingponds, Little Giant Bio Vort, and all the other brands from Nursery Pro, Atlantic, and Pond-Eco. Then take a look at one of our systems. Look at it. Kick it around. Look at its function. Then compare our system to all the hugely popular systems I mentioned above. You will see what the rest of the industry is seeing.

John, we may not be able to stop everyone from dputting koi into graval bottom ponds, but we all can (and many already have) had a positive effect in influencing many from doing so. Of course, as long as substandard products are available at a cheaper cost, someone will choose that route, with many later to understand why they should not have done so at a later date. You want to buy a Yugo by chance?

Quote: Our Hybrid systems are to the R&G industry what High Definition is to the television industry.

Well, the fundemental difference here John is that the R&G industry is not appropriate for koi as inhabitants and I believe that is the message that is being conveyed to you and to which most would prefer you to convey to prospective buyers.

Quote: Oh, and don't forget to take a look at our koi pond products (bead filters, skimmers, and centrifugal pumps - our Hydro Columns can also add a new cosmetic dimension to your ponds).

I'd be happy to take a look and discuss such with at some time.

Quote: One thing that many of you here are overlooking is that you are talking directly to a national manufacturer that will be opening retail/wholesale outlets across the country starting in later 2007. You can have a direct influence on products that are sold in our stores.

I think we all understand that point John and we are all "praying" to have a positive influence. If we didn't, I don't believe that myself and others would be interacting with you.

Quote: You can't stop people from putting koi in R&G ponds. What we can do is work together to create an information program, and a step-stage format of koi keeping from novice to your level that will be featured in all of our stores nation-wide. Not forgeting the steps in the middle and the people that absolutely, positively have to have R&G in their ponds with koi.

You are absolutely correct, just as you can't stop someone from loading up their 1/2 ton pickup with 10 tons of graval. It may work temporarily, but when the problems such as suspension, transmission, engine, etc pop up, they begin to undertsand what a good salesman should have told them. That the truck is design for "x" and not things outside those parameters. Personally, for those that have to have koi in a graval bottom pond, I would have as part of the contract a disclaimer that you discussed this and didn't advise such, but hey, that is just me not wanting to take advantage of someone (buyer) with inadequate knowledge base to make the decision towards such.

Quote: Steve, lets get together to see what we can build at our Flagship Store. We can name the pond we build here after you, and we'll publish the design and give you credit as the "designer" on our web site - and provide all your contact information to the world. We'll photograph every step of the process for instruction manuals and our web site. We will of course be using our bead filters, skimmers, and centrifugal pumps, we'll also use Emperor Aquatics UV's, and what ever bottom drain you prefer. We can build settling chambers to your specs, and we'll use our media. The pond design has to pass the city of Redmond's permit requirements for safety in a public place, and we can't make it out of concrete because that would be considered a permanent alteration to the property and that is not allowed in our lease on the property. The pond will also be stocked with koi from the Kodama Koi Farm. This is the guidelines inwhich the pond must be built. A few hoops I know, but a business has to follow guidlines set by the City inwhich it operates, and under the lease they sign on the property. If we can make it work,that would be the definition of "working together"! See you all soon, Sincerely, John Russell President/CEO Russell Watergardens

John, so you want to build a demo pond of what should be a permenant structure without making it such? Structural integrity is a VERY important factor in designing a koi pond. Simply ask auntiesue about this. I'd be morethan willing to help you with this project. By the way, in case you don't know, I am a hobbyist with a "tad" bit of knowledge on koi pond design and dynamics. I'm not looking for business since I accept no renumeration and would do this simply as a teaching tool to you and your potential future customers. I'll send you my contact information via PM.

Steve