Utsuri/Showa development questions

[schildkoi]

While we say that a Showa (or Utsuri) is a black fish and that Kohaku and Sanke are white fish, perhaps we could look at it diferently? Perhaps one should say that Showa and Utsuri are derived from black fish while Kohaku and Sanke are derived from white fish? In this manner (instead of thinking of them as white or black) the issue of sumi coming up, or receding verses shiroji coming up or receeding may not seem as complicated?

Shiroji is not pigmentation but the appearance of white on thickening skin. Sumi on the other hand is black pigmentation that must rise to the surface. With this skin on young koi (fry), the showa and Utsuri will appear black ( at least as I understand it. As the skin developes, the white skin begins to show and then, balck pigmentation begins to rise.

Just some thoughts.

Steve

[RayJordan]

Lots of questions and facets to these questions of black based and white based koi. This really all goes back to the beginnings of koi history and genealogy. There were several orginal lineages for "black" and "white" based koi that have in various combinations produced along with introduction of Doitsu all the modern forms today.

Showa were a developent from the Tetsu (iron carp) lineage orginally which produced Hi Goi. When some Hi Goi were crossed back to some magoi the old style Hi & Ki Bekkos and Old Style Hi & Ki Utsuri's with a new type of pattern called "wrapping" was developed.

From the Utsuri branch the first orginal showa were produced in 1927. These orginal showas would not be recognizable by us today. They were grey, yellow and white with matsuba markings and striped fins. They did not have menware type patterns or motoguri yet.

These orginal showa (black based) were crossed with kohaku (white based) in the 1960's to produce the first modern showa that you would identify today. IN the late 1970's to present day Showas were crossed with Sanke(white based) to get better black and beni development.

My point is that the current day showas are not really any longer a pure plack based koi because it has been crossed with white based koi.

Finally the modern Shiro Utsuri's we see today were developed from modern showa lineage and thus have also inherited both black and white based genetics.

So to call Showas and Utsuris a black based koi is really more of a historical label than a genetic reality today.

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by RayJordan So to call Showas and Utsuris a black based koi is really more of a historical label than a genetic reality today.

and I couldn't agree more.

Even so, JPR (God bless him) teaches that it is necessary to understand this fundamental distinction (white based/black based) before one proceeds on to color, pattern, skin and scale when classifying koi. We need to remember that the Japanese system is based upon evolution -- and that was where it started.

[MikeM]

Yes, it is time for JR to tell us about the "white spreading" gene. Miss not having him on the boards.

[schildkoi]

and one of the reasons in my response to Clay that I said:

Quote: But in most cases you may be able to see some underlying black.

With the "may" bolded. The lack of black in the mouth means nothing. But if present (or underlying) it can be one of many indicators that it is.

Steve

[koifishgirl]

How old are the utsuri before the shiro start's to develope and how long does it take before a pattern is set in stone?

[cppond]

I could read these types of posts all day.

Thank you.

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Yes, it is time for JR to tell us about the "white spreading" gene. Miss not having him on the boards.

Why is he not on the boards? I was waiting to read a little wisdom from the man.

[RayJordan]

Traditional Showa and Ustruri breeders will seperate the black fry from the white fry at about 3-5 days after hatching. The white fry is discarded and only the black fry are placed in mud ponds and raised to the 1st culling period at about 30-40 days of age.

It is said the % of black to white fry varies greatly by each set of parents. Often the spawnings that yield a larger percentage of black fry develop into lower quality babies. Spawnings that yeild a lower % of black fry tend to produce higher quality offspring. I have been told a goal of 20-30% black fry seems to peoduce the best crops of showa and utsuri.

These tiny black fry will turn white a few days later and start the development of adult colors and patterns. At the 1st culling the average size of the babies is about one inch. At the first culling single color and deformed koi as well as tobi's and runts are discarded. This usually amounts to about 80% to 90% of the orginal crop of black fry.

As to when the pattern might become stable. For most never does. For a tiny % of the highest quality adults perhaps at 3-4 years for males and much later for most high quality females.

[cppond]

What, if anything is the significance of dark eyes? I've read that it may be an indicator. If it is, is it a reliable indicator of a fish being a showa versus a sanke?