Utsuri/Showa development questions

[PapaBear]

I can understand why the old timers don't like to talk about the WWII era. Apart from being able to salvage their livelyhood from the rubble, there isn't much to want to remember. Thank you again Ray for your great historical perspective.
Mitch, your observations match up well with everything I've ever studied about genetics. Certain dominant traits are a "package" deal. Red hair, green eyes, freckles, and pinkish white complextions OR Dark wavy hair, dark brown eyes, and Olive skin OR Blonde hair, blue eyes, medium tan skin.
This explains why certain varieties will establish a "bloodline" type capable of reproducing after its "own kind", while others are generally cross bred in order to get a genetic variant that crosses over to a more unique offspring.
When considering how difficult it can be to get these genetic trait packages to break down into their individual parts and "blend" with a similarly dismantled but different package, the breeders are to be respected just that much more for their insight and tenacity.
We have a new female Kohaku we hope to breed to my Avatar male (Kin Aka Bekko). What we HOPE to get is some nice Sanke... but who knows???

[koifishgirl]

You know I dont even want to think about this anymore. All my eggs and all look different when born with the same man, different man different look. Same goes for koi Get there traits from mom and pop and even grandma or pawpaw, this really get's complicated if you think about it. The gene pool
Maybe one day I will have some shiro utsuri and can see how they develope from fry to adults

[MysticKoi]

Quote: A koi? I had a daughter over there a couple of days ago.

I was just over there last week, and missed your daughter by hours. The Shaw's dropped me off at Manchester departures, and then swung over to arrivals to pick her up just a short time later. Bummer... would have been nice to meet her, I hear she is so kind!

Regards,
Bill

[Campcheryl]

Thanks Bill. She is having the time of her life. This was the second visit to the Shaw's for her. She is attending school in Ireland and is experiencing all that she can. I'm rather proud of her.

[Campcheryl]

Thanks Ray slso. I have notes from your talks on the history of koi. Interesting stuff. I just wish I would have taken notes when Peter was talking with us during a couple of his visits to our house. I just got so mesmerized in listening to him that all I was focused on was him. Didn't cross my mind to take notes.

[dizzyfish]

Larry,
I just realized I didn't explain that crossing correctly. (I must be getting old) I had also placed a male Showa in with the female Showa and the male Kohaku. So some of the fry were probably Showa/Showa and some were almost certainly Showa/Kohaku.
Just for the sake of understanding the genetics a little better I wish I had just used the Showa female and the male Kohaku. Paul at Emerald Koi says he reared some clear fry(Tancho & Kohaku) from a Showa pairing and they were not good, which is very believeable. Some of the Kohaku I got from the Showa/Kohaku cross are pretty nice, but certainly not show quality. I don't believe the Showa/Kohaku cross produced a lot if any Kindai Showa.

I'm telling this story for the second time but.............I attended the Greater Louiville Goldfish and Koi Show Memorial Day weekend. I got some eggs from an accidental spawn in one of the show tanks. The eggs were from a female Kohaku and a male Showa. Some others got some eggs too. I ended with 1000s of fry which was really more than I had room for. Not a single one of the 1000s of babies I was raising were dark. I checked with a friend who also got some eggs and he observed the exact same thing. I did notice the young fry were either orange looking or white looking, but none were dark. As they grew I began to realize the ones that looked orange were turning out to be solid orange, or they only had a little white on the stomach. Now some of the white ones turned out to be Tancho and Kohaku. A few and I mean very few of the orange ones did develop a little black sumi and turned toward Sanke.

So what I observed was a Showa/Kohaku crossing that produced no Showa what so ever. Unless that is, they are like Brady's "New Age Showa" that start out clear and turn out like Kindai Showa but 6.5 months post spawn I see no indication of such. It is also interesting to note that the Showa/Kohaku crossing produced probably less than 1% Sanke. It would be interesting to hear from others who had crossed Kohaku and Showa to see how their results compared.

Can anyone tell me when rearing Kohaku if you normally cull the pink/orange fry and keep the ones that look more white? It seems like this culling could be done at just a few days of age if that is the case. Lots to learn.
Thanks,
Mitch

[MikeM]

No, Mitch. If it could be done so soon, the breeders would do it.

[dizzyfish]

Mike at what age do the breeders usually have the first cull on Kohaku. I have read that the solid color red/orange and white are the first to be culled.
I suspect they are able to cull the solid orange/red well before the solid white, since a Tancho might take a while to appear. Is this a correct assumption?
Mitch

[MikeM]

Mitch: Check out the old thread on culling I bumped up. DickB's concise summary is exactly what I've read in many interviews of breeders. Timing may vary a week or so depending on conditions, bloodline, etc.