Utsuri/Showa development questions

[PapaBear]

Trying to figure out what is REALLY going on with them.
Here is what I know. (Kindai excepted, different discussion)
Showa and Utsuri are both BLACK skinned fish. The fry start out black and only time tells us how the beni, shiro, or ki will develop. But most discussions of them (especially utsuri) seem to revolve around how the SUMI will develop. Isn't that a bit of a misnomer???
If they are in fact BLACK skinned fish, shouldn't it logically follow that the entire fish is Sumi, with the development of pigment cells only involving Beni, Shoroji, Ki... or am I missing something.
In the case of a Shiro Utsuri it is white surface pigmentation covering black skin, so is it not more accurate to say that as Sumi rises and falls we are not seeing Sumi develop, but rather that it is Shiroji receding/finishing? If an Utsuri goes white, isn't it strong Shiro rather than weak Sumi?
Just trying to get a better handle on how these varieties really develop in order to have a more educated eye when on the hunt.

[PapaBear]

Somebody throw me a bone here (he says while doing his best "dr evil" impersonation )
Are my thoughts too far off base to even get a correction, or so obvious that no further comment is needed . The nature of white skin vs. black skin is one that seems to cause a lot of confusion when people are talking about Sumi development and why you should look for entirely different traits when selecting Showa vs Sanke or Utsuri vs Bekko.
I really think a little discussion from those of you who really know your stuff would be beneficial to the rest of us.

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear Somebody throw me a bone here (he says while doing his best "dr evil" impersonation ) Are my thoughts too far off base to even get a correction, or so obvious that no further comment is needed . The nature of white skin vs. black skin is one that seems to cause a lot of confusion when people are talking about Sumi development and why you should look for entirely different traits when selecting Showa vs Sanke or Utsuri vs Bekko. I really think a little discussion from those of you who really know your stuff would be beneficial to the rest of us.

No, Larry. I'm with you. I'm trying to sort this out myself. One of the problems is that you get into the genotype vs phenotype issue. Do all showa start out black, then the other colors develop later? What about the so called new age showa? Where do they fit in? Do they start out black?

[cppond]

Larry -

Maybe we should try insulting eachother?

[Clay]

Larry, you have had some interesting comments. While I don't profess to being any kind of expert I will add to the question pool. In the next wet lab that I go to I want an Utsuri to necropsy. We talk about layer upon layer of beni to produce a deep red quality hi. I understand the philosophy behind Utsuri being black fish with white markings but is that real biology or is that one way of looking at them? In other words if I take my shiro and slice off the white skin does black pigment really underly the white ground or did the black actually change to white all of the way through?

Yes, I think of sanke as having spots of black and Utsuri as having bands of black, but I am not sure that how we describe the fish is biologically sound. I very well could be wrong, but I would think that the black actually changes to white. To flip the question when sumi comes up on a sanke can you cut away the sumi and expose shiroji or does the white change to black. My questions revolve around your questions about misnomers.

Rick

[johnm]

My understanding is that the "white on black" and "black on white" is an expression describing the appearance rather than an anatomical fact.

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnm My understanding is that the "white on black" and "black on white" is an expression describing the appearance rather than an anatomical fact.

You may be correct, but I hae read that the inside of a showa's mouth is usually black as opposed to a sanke or kohaku, for instance, whose mouth is white.

[Clay]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond You may be correct, but I hae read that the inside of a showa's mouth is usually black as opposed to a sanke or kohaku, for instance, whose mouth is white.

CP, that is accurate. It really helps when you are dealing with a young kindai showa with no motoguro and no head sumi and it they look somewhat like a sanke to look in the mouth.

Rick

[schildkoi]

That may need some clarification. It may not be Black, but suimply light grey where the sumi can be seen inside the layers of tissue. Don't expect to open a Showa or Utsuri's mouth and expect it to be midnight black, it probably won't be. But in most cases you may be able to see some underlying black.

Steve

[Clay]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi That may need some clarification. It may not be Black, but suimply light grey where the sumi can be seen inside the layers of tissue. Don't expect to open a Showa or Utsuri's mouth and expect it to be midnight black, it probably won't be. But in most cases you may be able to see some underlying black. Steve

Thanks bud. I won't be able to hang around waiting for your reply but can you comment on the rest of the thread with sumi development? Look forward to your answer.

Rick