Designate Koi Varieties Into subspecies of Cyprinus carpio

[koicluboftheair]

One persons green carp is another persons bass. Yet, I understand about 75% of what is caught aside from bluegill in West Point Lake is Cyprinus Carpio. You do have triploid grass carp in the area though that can't produce progeny and obviously they are of an entirely different species.

Quote: Originally Posted by koifishgirl The wild green carp has the most beautiful matsuba pattern and the light green color is stunning. I love to see them swimming and eating grass along the banks of a pond. Not only do they get huge you can walk up very close to these koi, so I consider them somewhat friendly. I do plan to spawn a pair when or if I can find one. I had a friend of mine fishing for one last year for me but they are not easliy caught. They fed these fish in a shallow area at the West Point Lake this past year with bread and they alway came up to eat for them. It may be a waste of my time but I still want to do this as you never know what will come of a spawn like this and so what, its just my time.

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by koifishgirl The wild green carp has the most beautiful matsuba pattern and the light green color is stunning. I love to see them swimming and eating grass along the banks of a pond. Not only do they get huge you can walk up very close to these koi, so I consider them somewhat friendly. I do plan to spawn a pair when or if I can find one. I had a friend of mine fishing for one last year for me but they are not easliy caught. They fed these fish in a shallow area at the West Point Lake this past year with bread and they alway came up to eat for them. It may be a waste of my time but I still want to do this as you never know what will come of a spawn like this and so what, its just my time.

From Aquaculture Health International:

Yechiam Shapira and colleagues recently published a paper in the
journal Aquaculture describing a series of experiments looking at
the resistance of various crossbreeds of domestic and wild strains
of carp (Cyprinus carpio) to KHV challenge.
In laboratory trials, a domestic/wild crossbreed resulted in
substantial resistance to viral challenge (60.7 percent survival). At
the other end of the spectrum, one particular strain of domestic
crosses was particularly susceptible to KHV, resulting in a postchallenge
survival rate of only eight percent. Such results highlight
the potential of selective breeding to reduce the impact of KHV in
both ornamental and koi carp.
For further information, consult Shapira Y,Magen Y, Zak T,
Kotler M, Hulata G and Levavi-Sivan B (2005). Differential
resistance to koi herpes virus (KHV)/carp interstitial nephritis and
gill necrosis virus (CNGV) among common carp (Cyprinus
carpio L) strains and crossbreds.

[MikeM]

Do you have a link to the study?

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Do you have a link to the study?

Only the peered reviewed publication listing on the web at: http://www.agri.gov.il/AnimalScience/ASpub.html
And Werner's Water Gardens website http://wernersponds.com/immunity.html makes mention of it.

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley So all Domestic dogs are a subspecies Canis lupes familiaris. A fox terrier and a great dane are still all the same sub species?

Hybrids, but all domestic dogs. I'm not sure of the history of dog breeders interest in assigning distinct varieties or subspecies. Seems there has to be some will or motivation to make such a distinction. Seems much more difference there though than between say koicop and myself although I'm sure he would claim vice a versa.

[jnorth]

Do you mean something like Cyprinus carpio koi?

http://www.zoobank.org/namedetails.htm?nameid=1724585

Or were you thinking cyprinus carpio koi kohaku or something like that?

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth Do you mean something like Cyprinus carpio koi? http://www.zoobank.org/namedetails.htm?nameid=1724585 Or were you thinking cyprinus carpio koi kohaku or something like that?

Thank you so much for showing me subspecies. Yea, and now I'd like that kohaku variety
Cyprinus carpio koi

Common carp (Cyprinus carpio carpio) is a fish species widely cultivated for human food with 1·5 million metric tons harvested annually, principally from China and other Asian and European countries and Israel (www.fao.org). In contrast to common carp, the subspecies koi (Cyprinus carpio koi) is a beautiful and colourful fish that is part of a worldwide hobby that involves keeping koi in backyard ponds and large display aquaria for personal pleasure or for competitive showing.
http://vir.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/full/84/10/2661

[mrbradleybradley]

The domestic dog example is one that has comparisons to the likelyhood of Koi becoming its own sub-species. Dog morphology is so different among breeds and is it given breed based sub-species? There is also 2 species mole I read about on New Scientist a while back that has identical morphology but are genetically different enough to asign different species. The question is whether or not koi and common carp are genetically divergent enough to assign sub-species. There is a branch of evolutionary study, called cladistics that looks at genetic variation to assign evolutionary tree locations and at the same time separate classifications based on the % of genetic differences. There are marginal genetic difference between koi and common carp reported in several publications. But always the question returns to at what % does it warrant sub-species. These questions and arguements have never been fully resolved.

Not everyone agrees on Cyprinus carpio koi either. I wish they would among the scientific bodies in Australia as Cyprinus carpio are regulated in some states and banned in others. A recognition of Cyprinus carpio koi might make the koi hobby happier around our parts.

BB

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley The domestic dog example is one that has comparisons to the likelyhood of Koi becoming its own sub-species. Dog morphology is so different among breeds and is it given breed based sub-species? There is also 2 species mole I read about on New Scientist a while back that has identical morphology but are genetically different enough to asign different species. The question is whether or not koi and common carp are genetically divergent enough to assign sub-species. There is a branch of evolutionary study, called cladistics that looks at genetic variation to assign evolutionary tree locations and at the same time separate classifications based on the % of genetic differences. There are marginal genetic difference between koi and common carp reported in several publications. But always the question returns to at what % does it warrant sub-species. These questions and arguements have never been fully resolved. Not everyone agrees on Cyprinus carpio koi either. I wish they would among the scientific bodies in Australia as Cyprinus carpio are regulated in some states and banned in others. A recognition of Cyprinus carpio koi might make the koi hobby happier around our parts. BB

Thanks for the info and your conclusion is one of the same reasons I'm interested in this issue in seeking points of advocacy for providing greater protection for hobbyist varieties.

[Kohaku]

They are probably too similar. Plus, these color variations came from selective breeding.