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Old 12-09-2006   #1 (permalink)
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Designate Koi Varieties Into subspecies of Cyprinus carpio

As is so often commonly said in the koi hobbyist community these fish are genetically disposed to variations in color and pattern and many desirable varieties have been lost and the history of them muddled via selective breeding. Why not pursue the application of the subspecies nomenclature to Cyprinus carpio for ornamental koi? Other animal and plant species are differentiated into subspecies by factors that may or may not include geographic distribution, behavioral characteristics, coloration, genetic markers and morphology. Why not koi? As specially bred varieties cannot be studied in the wild geographic distribution would not be a determinant, but how about behavioral characteristics as with the calmer manner of the chagoi due to its lineage? Color variety and patterning are obviously distinguishable variations that are hybridized with more veracity in koi it seems than Gregor Mendel accomplished with peas. Genetic and morphological distinctions seem likely to exist beyond variations of color including sizes and shapes of structural characteristics including finnage (long fins and butterfly), nasal tufts, and barbles.

By definition “microevolution” occurs, “as evolution resulting from a succession of relatively small genetic variations that often cause the formation of new subspecies.” http://www.answers.com/topic/microevolution

The Biological Species Concept (BSC) used in animal taxonomy, which was developed in 1940 (nearly 200 years after the father of taxonomy Carl Linnaeus began cataloging diversity via specific nomenclature) has brought greater order some say to what has always been considered an intuitive rather than exact science. Wilson and Brown (1953) quoted Moore (1949) who said, "there is no generally accepted and easily applied criterion for recognizing subspecies." However, the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature continues to list subspecies. “The Code is meant to guide only the nomenclature of animals, while leaving the zoologists some degree of freedom in classifying new species and higher-level taxa. In other words, whether a species itself is or is not a real entity is a subjective decision, but what name should be applied to it is not; the Code applies only to the latter, not to the former.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...l_Nomenclature

As with orchid hybridizing the naming of subspecies as much of the rationale has always been based on the willingness of those doing the hybridizing in farming situations. Resisting the designation of subspecies would seem rooted in breeders not wanting such designations and possible indifference from hobbyists. Yet, if certain varieties have traits worth maintaining then a subspecies designation would provide the potential for possibly preserving at least the record of those characteristics for more than has been accomplished in decades and varieties past.

Note: I was served by JNorth in post #16 as Cyprinus carpio koi is already a designated subspecies.
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Old 12-09-2006   #2 (permalink)
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Heck I just want to catch a wild green carp and spawn with a good looking male and see what I come up with. Now to me that would be fun
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Old 12-10-2006   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by koifishgirl View Post
Heck I just want to catch a wild green carp and spawn with a good looking male and see what I come up with. Now to me that would be fun
Sounds fun.
Note: The ability of individuals in subsets of particular species to produce offspring has not diminished their potential categorization as subspecies.
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Old 12-10-2006   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by koicluboftheair View Post
As is so often commonly said in the koi hobbyist community these fish are genetically disposed to variations in color and pattern and many desirable varieties have been lost and the history of them muddled via selective breeding. Why not pursue the application of the subspecies nomenclature to Cyprinus carpio for ornamental koi? Other animal and plant species are differentiated into subspecies by factors that may or may not include geographic distribution, behavioral characteristics, coloration, genetic markers and morphology. Why not koi? As specially bred varieties cannot be studied in the wild geographic distribution would not be a determinant, but how about behavioral characteristics as with the calmer manner of the chagoi due to its lineage? Color variety and patterning are obviously distinguishable variations that are hybridized with more veracity in koi it seems than Gregor Mendel accomplished with peas. Genetic and morphological distinctions seem likely to exist beyond variations of color including sizes and shapes of structural characteristics including finnage (long fins and butterfly), nasal tufts, and barbles.

By definition “microevolution” occurs, “as evolution resulting from a succession of relatively small genetic variations that often cause the formation of new subspecies.” http://www.answers.com/topic/microevolution

The Biological Species Concept (BSC) used in animal taxonomy, which was developed in 1940 (nearly 200 years after the father of taxonomy Carl Linnaeus began cataloging diversity via specific nomenclature) has brought greater order some say to what has always been considered an intuitive rather than exact science. Wilson and Brown (1953) quoted Moore (1949) who said, "there is no generally accepted and easily applied criterion for recognizing subspecies." However, the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature continues to list subspecies. “The Code is meant to guide only the nomenclature of animals, while leaving the zoologists some degree of freedom in classifying new species and higher-level taxa. In other words, whether a species itself is or is not a real entity is a subjective decision, but what name should be applied to it is not; the Code applies only to the latter, not to the former.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...l_Nomenclature

As with orchid hybridizing the naming of subspecies as much of the rationale has always been based on the willingness of those doing the hybridizing in farming situations. Resisting the designation of subspecies would seem rooted in breeders not wanting such designations and possible indifference from hobbyists. Yet, if certain varieties have traits worth maintaining then a subspecies designation would provide the potential for possibly preserving at least the record of those characteristics for more than has been accomplished in decades and varieties past.
Philosophy of Biology fun

Dogs, in all there wonderful size, shapes, colours and behaviours are all still dogs and not categorised to subspecies?

BB
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Old 12-10-2006   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
Philosophy of Biology fun

Dogs, in all there wonderful size, shapes, colours and behaviours are all still dogs and not categorised to subspecies?

BB
Domestic dogs are a subspecies Canis lupes familiaris. Plus, there is great diversity amongst Canidae listed in the nomenclature. If there were need for concessions and compromise then at the most basic level of comparison of koi to domestic dogs in the nomenclature why not have them treated as domestics and categorized as a subspecies like domestic dogs accordingly?

A dog is just a dog?

Family Canidae (dogs)

Genus Alopex
  • Alopex lagopus (Arctic fox)
    • Alopex lagopus lagopus Alopex lagopus beringensis
      Alopex lagopus fuliginosus
      Alopex lagopus groenlandicus
      Alopex lagopus hallensis
      Alopex lagopus lagopus
      Alopex lagopus pribilofensis
      Alopex lagopus sibiricus
      Alopex lagopus spitzbergensis
      Alopex lagopus ungava
Genus Atelocynus
  • Atelocynus microtis (small-eared dog)
Genus Canis
  • Canis adustus (side-striped jackal)
    • Canis adustus adustus Canis adustus bweha
      Canis adustus centralis
      Canis adustus kaffensis
      Canis adustus lateralis
    Canus aureus (golden jackal)
    • Canus aureus aureus Canus aureus algerensis
      Canus aureus anthus
      Canus aureus bea
      Canus aureus lupaster
      Canus aureus maroccanus
      Canus aureus riparius
      Canus aureus soundanicus
    Canus familiaris (dingo)
    • Canus familiaris dingo
    Canis latrans (coyote)
    • Canis latrans latrans Canis latrans cagottis
      Canis latrans clepticus
      Canis latrans dickeyi
      Canis latrans frustor
      Canis latrans goldmani
      Canis latrans hondurensis
      Canis latrans impavidus
      Canis latrans incolatus
      Canis latrans jamesi
      Canis latrans lestes
      Canis latrans mearnsi
      Canis latrans microdon
      Canis latrans ochropus
      Canis latrans peninsulae
      Canis latrans texensis
      Canis latrans thamnos
      Canis latrans umpquensis
      Canis latrans vigilis
    Canis lupus (gray wolf)
    • Canis lupes albus (Eurasian tundra wolf) Canis lupes alces (Kenai Peninsula wolf)
      Canis lupes arabs (Arabian wolf)
      Canis lupes arctos (Melville Island wolf)
      Canis lupes baileyi (Mexican wolf)
      Canis lupes beothucus (Newfoundland wolf)
      Canis lupes bernardi (Banks Island tundra wolf)
      Canis lupes campestris (Steppe wolf)
      Canis lupes columbianus (British Columbian wolf)
      Canis lupes crassodon (Vancouver Island wolf)
      Canis lupes fuscus (Cascade Mountains wolf)
      Canis lupes hattai (Kishida wolf)
      Canis lupes hodophilax (Hondo wolf)
      Canis lupes hudsonicus (Hudson Bay wolf)
      Canis lupes griseoalbus (???)
      Canis lupes irremotus (Northern Rocky Mountain wolf)
      Canis lupes labradorius (Labrador wolf)
      Canis lupes laniger (Tibetan wolf)
      Canis lupes ligoni (Alexander Archipelago wolf)
      Canis lupes lupes (European wolf, common wolf)
      Canis lupes lycaon (Eastern timber wolf)
      Canis lupes mackenzii (Mackenzie tundra wolf)
      Canis lupes manningi (Baffin Island tundra wolf)
      Canis lupes mogollonesis (Mogollon Mountain wolf)
      Canis lupes monstrabilis (Texas gray wolf)
      Canis lupes nubilus (Great Plains wolf, Buffalo wolf)
      Canis lupes occidentalis (Mackenzi Valley wolf)
      Canis lupes orion (Greenland wolf)
      Canis lupes pallipes (Iranean wolf)
      Canis lupes pambisileus (Interior Alaskan wolf)
      Canis lupes tundrarum (Alaska tundra wolf)
      Canis lupes youngi (Southern Rocky Mountain wolf)
    Canis mesomelas (black-backed jackal)
    • Canis mesomelas mesomelas Canis mesomelas achrotes
      Canis mesomelas arenarum
      Canis mesomelas elgonae
      Canis mesomelas schmiditi
    Canis rufus (red wolf)
    • Canis rufus rufus Canis rufus gregoryi
    Canis simensis (Ethopian wolf, Abyssinian wolf, Simion jackal, Simion fox)
    • Canis simensis simensis Canis simensis citernii
Genus Cerdocyon
  • Cerdocyon thous (crab-eating fox)
    • Cerdocyon thous thous Cerdocyon thous aquilus
      Cerdocyon thous azarae
      Cerdocyon thous entrerianus
      Cerdocyon thous germanus
Genus Chrysocyon
  • Chrysocoyn brachyurus (maned wolf)
Genus Cuon
  • Cuon alpinus (Dhole)
    • Cuon alpinus alpinus Cuon alpinus adustus
      Cuon alpinus dukhunensis
      Cuon alpinus fumosus
      Cuon alpinus hesperius
      Cuon alpinus infuscus
      Cuon alpinus javanocus
      Cuon alpinus laniger
      Cuon alpinus lepturus
      Cuon alpinus primaevus
      Cuon alpinus sumatrensis
Genus Dusicyon
  • Dusicyon australis (Falkland Island wolf)
Genus Lycaon
  • Lycaon pictus (African hunting dog)
    • Lycaon pictus pictus Lycaon pictus lupinus
      Lycaon pictus manguensis
      Lycaon pictus sharicus
      Lycaon pictus somalicus
Genus Nyctereutes
  • Nyctereutes procyonoides (raccoon dog)
    • Nyctereutes procyonoides procyonoides Nyctereutes procyonoides korweensis
      Nyctereutes procyonoides orestes
      Nyctereutes procyonoides ussuriensis
      Nyctereutes procyonoides viverrinus
Genus Otocyon
  • Otocyon megalotis (bat-eared fox)
    • Otocyon megalotis megalotis Otocyon megalotis virgatus
Genus Pseudalopex
  • Pseudalopex culpaeus (Colpeo fox)
    • Pseudalopex culpaeus culpaeus Pseudalopex culpaeus andinus
      Pseudalopex culpaeus culpaeolus
      Pseudalopex culpaeus lycoides
      Pseudalopex culpaeus megellanicus
      Pseudalopex culpaeus reissii
      Pseudalopex culpaeus smithersi
    Pseudalopex griseus (Argentine gray fox)
    • Pseudalopex griseus griseus Pseudalopex griseus domeykoanus
      Pseudalopex griseus fulvipes
      Pseudalopex griseus gracilis
      Pseudalopex griseus maullinicus
    Pseudalopex gymnocercus (South American fox)
    • Pseudalopex gymnocercus gymnocercus Pseudalopex gymnocercus antiquus
      Pseudalopex gymnocercus inca
    Pseudalopex microtis Pseudalopex sechurae (South American fox)
    Pseudalopex vetulus (Hoary fox)
Genus Speothos
  • Speothyos venaticus (bush dog)
    • Speothyos venaticus venaticus Speothyos venaticus wingei
Genus Urocyon
  • Urocyon cinereoargenteus (gray fox)
    • Urocyon cinereoargenteus cinereoargenteus Urocyon cinereoargenteus borealis
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus californicus
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus colimensis
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus costaricensis
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus floridanus
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus fraterculus
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus furvus
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus guatemalae
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus madrensis
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus nigrirostris
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus ocythous
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus orinomus
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus peninsularis
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus scottii
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus townsendi
      Urocyon cinereoargenteus venezuelae
    Urocyon littoralis (gray fox)
    • Urocyon littoralis catalinae Urocyon littoralis clementae
      Urocyon littoralis dickeyi
      Urocyon littoralis littoralis
      Urocyon littoralis santacruzae
      Urocyon littoralis santarosae
Genus Vulpes
Vulpes bengalensis (Indian or Bengal fox) Vulpes cana (Blanford's fox)
Vulpes chama (cape fox)
Vulpes corsac (Corsac fox)
  • Vulpes corsac corsac Vulpes corsac kalmykorum
    Vulpes corsac turkmenica
Vulpes ferrilata (Tibetan sand fox) Vulpes pallida (pale fox)
  • Vulpes pallida pallida Vulpes pallida edwardsi
    Vulpes pallida harterti
    Vulpes pallida oertzeni
Vulpes rueppelli (sand fox)
  • Vulpes rueppelli rueppelli Vulpes rueppelli caesia
    Vulpes rueppelli cufrana
    Vulpes rueppelli somaliae
Vulpes velox (swift fox)
  • Vulpes velox velox Vulpes velox arsipus
    Vulpes velox devia
    Vulpes velox hebes
    Vulpes velox macrotis
    Vulpes velox mutica
    Vulpes velox neomexicana
    Vulpes velox nevadensis
    Vulpes velox tenuirostris
    Vulpes velox zinseri
Vulpes vulpes (red fox)
  • Vulpes vulpes vulpes Vulpes vulpes abietorum
    Vulpes vulpes aeygptiaca
    Vulpes vulpes alascensis
    Vulpes vulpes apherakyi
    Vulpes vulpes alticola
    Vulpes vulpes anatolica
    Vulpes vulpes arabica
    Vulpes vulpes atlantica
    Vulpes vulpes barbaras
    Vulpes vulpes beringiana
    Vulpes vulpes cascadensis
    Vulpes vulpes crucigera
    Vulpes vulpes daurica
    Vulpes vulpes diluta
    Vulpes vulpes dolichocrania
    Vulpes vulpes doesalis
    Vulpes vulpes flavescens
    Vulpes vulpes fulva
    Vulpes vulpes griffithi
    Vulpes vulpes harrimani
    Vulpes vulpes hoole
    Vulpes vulpes ichnusae
    Vulpes vulpes induta
    Vulpes vulpes jakutensis
    Vulpes vulpes japonica
    Vulpes vulpes karagan
    Vulpes vulpes kenaiensis
    Vulpes vulpes krimeamontana
    Vulpes vulpes kurdistanica
    Vulpes vulpes macroura
    Vulpes vulpes montana
    Vulpes vulpes necator
    Vulpes vulpes ochroxantha
    Vulpes vulpes palaestina
    Vulpes vulpes peculiosa
    Vulpes vulpes pusilla
    Vulpes vulpes regalis
    Vulpes vulpes rubricosa
    Vulpes vulpes schrencki
    Vulpes vulpes silacea
    Vulpes vulpes splendidissima
    Vulpes vulpes stepensis
    Vulpes vulpes tobolica
    Vulpes vulpes tschiliensis
Vulpes zerda (Fennec fox)
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Old 12-10-2006   #6 (permalink)
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Koi aren't genetically stable enough

You give a long list of Canines, but they differ from Koi in many ways when it comes to designating them as to type/genus.
If a Alopex lagopus (Arctic fox) pair breed year after year they will never reproduce a Atelocynus microtis (small-eared dog) . They will always and only reproduce after their own specific kind.
A Kohaku pairing, even from two well established bloodllines, will reproduce a large number of non-kohaku offspring, (benigoi, Platinum Ogon, pickamutt...anymutt, etc...) The same is true of other well established varieties ie Sanke, Showa, Utsuri.
How does one honestly establish varietal genus among creatures that reproduce such random varietal offspring?
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Old 12-11-2006   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
You give a long list of Canines, but they differ from Koi in many ways when it comes to designating them as to type/genus.
If a Alopex lagopus (Arctic fox) pair breed year after year they will never reproduce a Atelocynus microtis (small-eared dog) . They will always and only reproduce after their own specific kind.
A Kohaku pairing, even from two well established bloodllines, will reproduce a large number of non-kohaku offspring, (benigoi, Platinum Ogon, pickamutt...anymutt, etc...) The same is true of other well established varieties ie Sanke, Showa, Utsuri.
How does one honestly establish varietal genus among creatures that reproduce such random varietal offspring?
If you believe the results of egg and sperm pairing is the determinant of what the parent's species or subspecies designation should be then apply that to a pairing example of Alopex lagopus with Atelocynus microis. Would you say they produce only either Alopex lagopus or Atelocynus microis and if not where do you go from there? Do you say that the parents must not have been Alopex lagopus and Atelocynus microis? Unlike koi and goldfish producing mules other animal populations are delineated often more by range and morphology than results of pairing. If the resulting progeny were the only measure of subspecies determination then consider the result of mixing benigoi or platinum ogons (your examples), with grass or black carp? The later two varieties are surely not pulled from your domestic nishikigoi spawns. I've already conceeded that something such as Cyprinus carpio domesticata for example for domestic nishikigoi would be a step in the right direction
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Old 12-11-2006   #8 (permalink)
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So all Domestic dogs are a subspecies Canis lupes familiaris. A fox terrier and a great dane are still all the same sub species?
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Old 12-11-2006   #9 (permalink)
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As Ray would say . . .

TROLL ALERT
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Old 12-11-2006   #10 (permalink)
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The wild green carp has the most beautiful matsuba pattern and the light green color is stunning. I love to see them swimming and eating grass along the banks of a pond. Not only do they get huge you can walk up very close to these koi, so I consider them somewhat friendly.

I do plan to spawn a pair when or if I can find one. I had a friend of mine fishing for one last year for me but they are not easliy caught. They fed these fish in a shallow area at the West Point Lake this past year with bread and they alway came up to eat for them.

It may be a waste of my time but I still want to do this as you never know what will come of a spawn like this and so what, its just my time.
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