Trouble Spawning

[KoiPaarl]

In South Africa it is summertime now so many spawnings are happening. I tried my hand at it with 4 year old, very fat belly, female Showa 58 cm and 4 year old 60cm Showa male, neither of which spawned before. I set up a 1800l pond with spawning nets and brushes. Water was 22C, which I heated to 27C and put the fish and dropped the temp back to 22 after I put the fish in. That was 5 days ago. Nothing - Nada - Ziltch - Niks. The male did not even chase the female around.

My question - do fish instinctively know they are supposed to do something or must I try and find a male that has spawned already to teach my male what to do? I never thought spawning can be so difficult

[bekko]

What's your annual climate like there? In regions where there is a real winter, koi will typically spawn as the temperature rises from the teens to 20C. They are less predictable in tropical and subtropical regions. I never heard of anyone taking them all the way up to 27C and back down again - but maybe that's the way you do it there.

You know, the stimulation to spawn is only the last step in a long process. The eggs mature over months. If her ovaries are not developed then there is not much you can do except try again next year. Did she become fat just recently, or is she always fat? Some koi just have a pot belly.

The fish will know what to do when the time comes. You do not need to teach them.

-steveh opki

[KoiPaarl]

I have a very mature 32 000 liter pond and the coldest it ever gets in winter is 19C and the warmest it ever gets is 28C so the definition of "winter" in SA might be different to elsewhere. In heating my spawing pond I was trying to take them from their normal environment to a sudden drop in temperature. I have heard that this often results in triggering the spawning.

You might be right regarding the develoment of the ovaries - from a prize winner at our local Koi show she has become fat over the last three months, together with my other female Koi and looks very much full of eggs. I have now put her and the male back into my main pond and will try a different pair. I have 13 VERY high grade Koi with 11 being females and only 2 being males.

I have heard of Koi changing sex - could it be that my two males are/have changed and do not have the urge? They are still producing milt and under the microscope the sperm is active but they may potentially not have the urge to merge

[koifishgirl]

fill his gill plate, if you dont fill the sandpaper fill then he is not ready to spawn. I thought I had two females because bothe gill plates cover were smooth. But when it came time for them to spawn you could fill that sandpaper fill on his gill covers. I have also heard that you can massage his gill covers and get him in the mood. I dont know how true this is, but it is worth a try. Also the female has to start giving off a smell that triggers him. If she is not ready then the wont spawn.

Also I have heard that you can use the water where another pair has spawned to trigger another pair that is being difficult. I have not tried this yet but it's worth a try too.

[Russell Peters]

Originally Posted by koifishgirl

fill his gill plate, if you dont fill the sandpaper fill then he is not ready to spawn. I thought I had two females because bothe gill plates cover were smooth. But when it came time for them to spawn you could fill that sandpaper fill on his gill covers. I have also heard that you can massage his gill covers and get him in the mood. I dont know how true this is, but it is worth a try. Also the female has to start giving off a smell that triggers him. If she is not ready then the wont spawn.

Also I have heard that you can use the water where another pair has spawned to trigger another pair that is being difficult. I have not tried this yet but it's worth a try too.

I hear that KOI-Pen and PlayKOI magazines can work as well.LOL

[koifishgirl]

Russell are you makin fun of what I said Does what I said sound so far fecthed Because Koi Pen and Play Koi does

[Russell Peters]

Originally Posted by koifishgirl

Russell are you makin fun of what I said Does what I said sound so far fecthed Because Koi Pen and Play Koi does

It is all in good fun.

[bekko]

KoiPaarl, I think that if the female is putting out the scent then the males will be ready to service her. It is the female who is not ready.

Our water seldom gets below 21C or above 26C and it makes things interesting. The bad thing is that the environmental cues are weak. The good thing is that the spawning season is very protracted. Give it some time.

-steveh

[KoiPaarl]

After 5 days I put the Showa male and female back into my main pond, confused as to why nothing happened. I then yesterday afternoon put my prize winning Tancho Sanke female into the pond and a few hours later a beautiful Kohaku male. This morning at 06h30 am they started their spawning and are still busy at it right now (11h30am) .

My question is now - can I expect sanke or kohaku to come out? Which of the two should I cull for?

[PapaBear]

I'll put my disclaimer on top... I AM A RANK AMATEUR!!!... so take this for what it is worth
Not knowing the ancestry of the Sanke could make it a tough call. If the Sanke's oyagoi was a Kohaku and a Bekko you could well pass on good genetics from both sides of the family tree (in my amateur opinion).
One thing is cerain. A first pairing is always a crapshoot, even with high quality Koi. Since you are experimenting with a new pairing, I would cull deformities, solid white, solid black, solid red (orange), and keep the rest for a month.
Count the number of Kohaku fry and Sanke fry and cull again after the month is up. Compare relative quality of the Sanke and Kohaku fingerlings AND the numbers after the 2nd culling. Some of the Kohaku from the first culling may begin developing Sumi as they mature. That will give you an indication of which way the offspring ae likely to go. In any case, make certain that you are only keeping STRONG hi patterns and good bodies. Dump the runts every time you cull.
Cull heavily every month throughout the growing season, keeping only the best of the best. At the end of the growing season judge them harshly and see if any look like tategoi. The number of tategoi you have of each variety will tell you what to expect from this pairing in the future. If there are few or no real tategoi, you know this pairing doesn't work and you will want to change partners next year.
As I said already, this is the opinion of a complete amateur.
BTW. I'm betting you will wind up with better Sanke numbers than Kohaku.