Is the Koi Hobby a Non-Competative Diversion!?

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters I agree with the statement Steve Hopkins made on the thread "What make a good hobbiest a good hobbiest". Where does that leave us with the Koi Show!!! I think Koi shows are very important and vital to the Koi hobby but it does tend to get a little competative. I think Koi shows allow people to see Koi they would not normally see and it can be a venue to steer newbies into the right direction if they are truly into Koi and NOT Koi in a watergarden. There will always be that upper level Koi fever that brings competition to those who have to win, but what about everyone else. Are there ways to bring more people into it? What can clubs do just to get people to help out with the production of a Koi show? What do you think?

I agree with your appreciation of the value of koi shows. However, Russell things do get a little competitive at koi shows as is demonstrated by some folks on koi message boards suggesting if you don’t have a GC and haven’t spent thousands on a single fish you aren’t particularly koi kichi. Actually the general populace considers these sorts of folks a bit touched (to say the least). However, some at the core of the clubs try to nurture just this sort of ethic that they have been taught or aspire to, which may be as big a detriment to growing their club as it is helping.

Should the end game be having a Grand Champion? Regardless, of the claim that there is good husbandry involved in nurturing that GC if it isn’t of particularly good brood stock in the first place what are its chances? Millions upon millions of koi culls are treated as trash, but we say we love koi.

Early on in the hobby I was informed of a gent stateside that sent one of his koi to Europe for an eye transplant, well it wasn’t much more than a marble, that later fell out, but such is considered an oddity amongst the general populace and maybe a bit neurotic unless of course one already has big bags of money at which point it would not of course be a big deal (but still have news value as being odd). The thought that folk’ living on modest means balancing all the priorities and financial rigors of raising a family, etc having to compete in a koi purchasing and show arms race of sorts isn’t the sort of ethic that grows koi clubs much.

While koi shows are a valuable, and fun form of public outreach showing off whoever cares to show their fish that is not the end all of the hobby.

Nishikigoi forever!

[Gail]

Quote: suggesting if you don’t have a GC and haven’t spent thousands on a single fish you aren’t particularly koi kichi.

I haven't been privy to anyone saying nor suggesting this anywhere? All I have found are helpful and experienced folks that are doing what they seem to have a passion for, and that is sharing their experiences with others about the koi. Covering all aspects of the "hobby" ( this word has taken on an entirely different meaning than it used to nowadays)

Of the people that would spend thousands on a single fish........well.only a few names come to mind..........and one in particular is not Koi kichi, so that kind of tosses a wrench in your comparison.

Shows are supposed to be competitive aren't they? Isn't this a venue in which one strives to have the best at the end of the day?

I know it has been compared to death, but dog shows come to mind as bringing to the forefront the best of the breed. They have shows for that reason purely! To excel in the business and hobby.

I am probably way off base here...learning all the time.....but I am not seeing the comparisons.

[dick benbow]

I think shows have evolved over the last decade to accomodate more interests.

we went from japanese style to english style in an effort to start controls for bio sdecurity. We added long fin categories.
Some shows have caught on to the grand champion "B" opportunity for non-gosanke types.

Most of the really competitive types focus on gosanke....will be interesting to see how the new "B" category will affect that area.... I think most of our associated seminars at koi shows are directed to those already in the hobby to advance. We might want to have something focused on those non koi people who come out of curiosity and then have an interest created. I see much more awarness of this crowd in some of the show booklets that give
reference numbers and club contacts. But ;like many things you need to strike while the iron is "hot" and many times I have seen information booths
busy so those who wanted questions answered don't care to wait.

many times clubs meet at members homes which has it's rewards but by meeting in a public space like library etc, you can get additional exposure than just a cloistered members only type. Pond tours that benefit a charity
creates good will and gets media publicity that helps get the word out. Also many cities have like groups of gardeners, bonsai folks, japanese festivals etc
that koi clubs could come along side to help raise awarness. For 2 years the members of Puget Sound koi came along side Weyerhauser Bonsai and had a small show and that was well received and still talked about some 7-8 years later.

interesting topic Russ....

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gail I haven't been privy to anyone saying nor suggesting this anywhere,... I know it has been compared to death, but dog shows come to mind as bringing to the forefront the best of the breed. They have shows for that reason purely! To excel in the business and hobby.

Sorry Gail,
Koi cop as I recall made a swipe at me making such a claim that I didn't have any GCs in another thread a week or so ago, which is why that stuck out in my thoughts.

As for the dog shows, I'd made that comparison this afternoon myself. My dear old mother loves all her koi even the imperfect ones (one called Nemo with one pectoral fin shorter than the other) from wild spawns. She would no more consider culling via throwing them on the compost pile (unless uncomfortably malformed and then put in freezer) than she would taking the pups with poor markings and drowning them for instance prior to throwing on the compost pile.
To extend the example in another life I was a marine biology undergrad that cut my teeth collecting mollusks (seashells to some). Oh, and the best collections don't come from walking just any old beach, but from scouring mudflats at low tide and digging for Cyrtopleura costata and picking up the Melongena corona, Strombus alatus and so many more. You see the best shells for collectors must be captured live to preserve the shell prior to loss of the mantle and foot in gastropods for instance. Scallop dredges are some of the best places to collect from as they are heavy laden with bycatch including high quality collectable mollusks. Most people other than collectors think bycatch is atrocious, but it is part of much of what we involve ourselves in that folks don't want to be reminded of often times. For every pound of shrimp caught in the Gulf of Mexico there is also 100 pounds of fish bycatch much of which does not make it to market. How many koi does it take as byproduct to make one GC? If we personify the philosophy that creates the demand for the highest quality koi it would seem to be something on the order of eugenics where in the very bad example of "****" (I can't say because JNorth warned me it is offensive to folks) he wanted to create a master race of blue eyed blondes and discard the rest. Is it wrong to want the most pretty koi possible? Of course not, but what it entails along the way does turn some folks off. Yet, they are happy to have a few koi in their pond or water garden and not get caught up in all the koi show arms races. So while some say the koi show is the highest order or the natural extension and aspiration of a club, I'd have to reflect a bit more on that before agreeing.

[Gail]

Hmmmmmmm..

Your title reads" Is the koi hobby a Non competeitive diversion?"

I think that the "hobby' in itself is non competitive.folks buying and breeding koi for the simple pleasure of besting their best,or not. I would see the competitveness stemming form personal triumphs.,not neccesarily from showing.

I have birds....they are for fun. They teach me more about themselves than I could read from a book.
But, if I really needed to have a hands on experience in something I had not faced, I know there are shows out there to show me what I may be looking for.Or at least qualified people that can point me in the correct direction.

Thats how I see the shows, more as a learning curve. If one is serious about getting into the purchase of a koi, then being among folks that have been there done that is invaluable.

The forums are a great place for "boning" up your art..but not the end all be for sure.

Non competitive? I suppose that would lay in the degree in which one takes their passion about things.
Where some are more than content to sit by the pond and watch their fish without interruption.others are striving to continue to improve.

Some ramblings.

[lildude]

Im not sure if I am qualified to put my input here, but here it goes.

If I have understood the name of the thread correctly, no, I think the koi hobby is very competetive just like any other animal hobby.

But once again, I really doubt I have correctly understood the whole topic of this thread.

[koiczar]

John

Your statement about "culling" is WAY OFF BASE!! The average hobbyist breeder doesn''t cull because they are not in the business of selling fish. They just want to see what happens if the try, or they have a free for all spawning in the pond and don't have the heart (nerve) to do the right thing. Whether they cull or allow the fish to die "naturally" is the same thing. No, wait, actually it's worse. It means they have no clue about what they're doing, so by their ignorance, kill the fish - only in another manner!

On the other hand, the Japanese breeders who are using a selective process are doing so in a responsible manner. It is albeit a double edge sword. On one hand, they want to improve the quality level of their stocks to make more money - that's what anyone in business would do! The other reason is that for them to try to keep all their stocks is truly out of the question. Some of these hatchlings don't even make the WalMart grade. There are defects and genetic imperfections. Would you buy a koi with a crooked spine just because you felt sorry for it? I don't think anyone would. The other reason is they simply don't have enough room to raise all those offspring in a healthy manner and put any size on them. I now digress to the first edge of the sword...

...Every breeder is competing with the rest to provide a quality product that people will come and buy. To that end, culling is one of the most important parts of raising koi. Comparing the breeding of dogs or cats to koi is totally irresponsible. A dog or cat litter consists of less than 10 offspring. If the mother (*****) notices any deformities they will attempt to destroy that pup by carrying it around by it's neck until dead. Most dog/cat breeders won't let that happen, or will they? Don't know - not much talked about, right? So why is that any different than a breeder acting as the so-called ***** in this case and doing what mother nature intends to protect a species? A single Koi spawning, on the other hand, produce as many as 500,000 eggs of which a large percentage hatch. Breeders have several parent sets of different varieties that they spawn each year. Culling is a very important part of their business. As inhumane as you make it sound, let's be realistic in their approach and not get too left wing about it.

I was an Ichthyology major in my youth. Even did volunteer work at the Steinhart Aquarium in San Francisco while attending school. Even there, culling was done. Nobody thought much about it even in the '60s as it was the responsible thing to do under the circumstances without the natural selection process being able to be in place in a controlled environment.

Comparing the whole issue to Hitler and his Arian race is REDICULOUS and typical of your journalistic approach to sensationalism.

Mike

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar John Your statement about "culling" is WAY OFF BASE!! Comparing the whole issue to Hitler and his Arian race is REDICULOUS and typical of your journalistic approach to sensationalism. Mike

Nowhere did I state culling was wrong. Your aversion to the comparison of eugenics is emotive. Likewise, most hobbyist are emotionally attached to their average pond variety koi that although they will never make Grand Champion status are loved and cared for due to the wonderful interaction they afford.

[Russell Peters]

Hey guys,

This is supposed to be a Non-Competative Diversion! Try not to get carried away.

[cocoyboy]

Although I do compete and sometimes win, I do it for participation and fellowship with and for the club or association having the event!
People who compete should keep in mind they could lose, and keep hope they're koi could win!
As far as where you are in the hobby (waterfeature or koi pond) should be fine by anyone! No better, no worse, because everyone has their path in koi or life.
I've infected a few freinds and relatives with this hobby by me talking about it, or them asking. And it's spreading!

Excellent statement schildkoi!

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi Although koi shows, are be definition "competitive," there is a difference and most shows that I attend, tend to be friendly competitions more than "win at all costs." Its the spirit of the actual entrants that dictate such. The true kichi have that comaraderie that makes the show fun. Those that go expecting to win have a far greater risk of disappointment than those who enter with low to no expectations. The Koi show drives the hobby. Without such, there would be no standards, no refinements to the koi, less interaction between hobbyists and between hobbyists and the general public. Steve