Breeders, their location and their water?

[Auntiesue]

I've been curious for some time about different breeders and how the water in their ponds might influence success in our ponds once the fish are purchased and brought into a new home. I've read a bit about how some fish break down almost immediately once taken from the mud and delivered to a new home. Some feel it is simply genetics, but I'm beginning to think it can be more than that as well.

Example: If I purchase a high end fish at the age of 3 or 4 I think (for the most part) we can assume the color/pattern etc is fairly stable. Or at least for this dicussion, lets assume the fish is stable. Let's also assume the water quality in the new pond is excellant and good foods are being offered. In oher words, the keeper has a good idea what they are doing.

If that fish comes from a soft water mud pond and is moved into a hard water home and that fish starts to break down pretty quickly. Is it genetics or could it possibly have sometime more to do with the difference in water?

I'm thinking that I might want to know which breeders have mud ponds closer to my water source rather than purchase fish from a soft water mud pond to increase my chances of bringing that fish to its potential.

Am I way off base here?

Sue

[MikeM]

I'd say not way off base, but things are seldom simple. For example, if you were able to get hardness readings, I doubt you would find many mud ponds with hard water. In Niigata, for example, the water is coming from snow melt and rain with relatively little contact with the minerals contributing to hardness. So most mud ponds will be soft, but the breeders' ponds are spread around. Some will have different readings. It is not just a question of which breeder, but which of the breeder's ponds. If you checked the greenhouse ponds you might get very different results due to the concrete, use of oyster shell, etc. So, for part of the year it may be soft water and for part of the year it may be medium hard water. If you were to find a record of pH and hardness readings, it might be useless now... Is the breeder using different facilities since the 2004 earthquakes?

A few years ago at the Orlando show there was a panel discussion by Torazo, Nogami and Oomo. They were asked about the pH and hardness of their ponds. They were very puzzled by the question. They don't test the mud ponds and generally don't test the greenhouse ponds. Torazo made a comment something like being able to see and feel if the water is alright. When your life is breeding koi, I guess some things are just known on a different level.

[jnorth]

Interesting question and one I've been struggling with for awhile. Seems to me that most of the koi I want do best in soft water with low ph. I have hard water with a high ph. The advice given most on the koi boards is to keep koi that do best based off your water. Not that great of advice in my opinion as most will tell you that gosanke do better in low ph, soft water which is of course exactly what I want in my pond. Not being a chemist I haven't been able to successfully figure out how to drop the ph(into the 7's from 9) and hardness levels safely. So I don't have an answer for you but I sure feel your pain.

[Russell Peters]

I think Mike brings up some very good points. Even though most water in Japan is soft breeders do have their ponds spread out which can vary the conditions. Take Hosokai for example. They have 75 mud ponds. We have been to many of them and some are 5 minutes away and some are in entirely different regions that can take over an hour to get too. Even though their water comes from runoff in all of their ponds, the condition of the soil and mud varies greatly from region to region.

[RayJordan]

Interesting topic. I suspect there is much more going on than just a change in water perameters like pH and hardness.

There are many examples of koi of all sizes going both ways when shipped to the U.S. I receive more than a few emails with a attached photo from koi keepers asking me advice about buying a certain koi. Here is an example.

"My favorite koi dealer just wrote me to offer a very special koi. Photo attached. It is X inches long and X years old and bred by X. It won X award at X show in Japan. Do you think it is worth the price X?"

After my usual disclaimer about not being able to make a proper decision from a photo... I list the variety standards and also throw in a few other bits of information. Like - koi are rarely shown in Japan before they are finished. So a koi that has already been shown (and won a award) has likely been finished for some time. Often these koi are sold/bartered back to the breeder/dealer for another younger unfinished koi. I leave the decision on buying with them.

I have seen more than a few koi in the U.S. that were supposed to be only 4 years old and still growing that looked more like 6-8 years old and finished to me. This is the same as a koi that looks male but guaranteed to be female. It doesn't matter to me what the real age or sex if it doesn't look like it is youthful and has strong body confromation I don't want to buy it.

I am not trying to step on anyones dream but just make you aware of how important it is to have a relationship with a breeder or dealer you can trust. You also have to realistic about your pond/filter system capabilities.

What I am trying to say is large finished koi cannot be maintained in top form for very long regardless of the water conditions or changes. Take a large finished koi and put it in a very stressful situation (shipment in box for 24-30 hours) it is very understandable that it will start to lose it's bloom. Buy and ship 2, 3, or at most 4 year olds from Japan and it is more likely they will manage the stress of shipment better and have some years before they start to decline.

[keokoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by RayJordan Take a large finished koi and put it in a very stressful situation (shipment in box for 24-30 hours) it is very understandable that it will start to lose it's bloom. Buy and ship 2, 3, or at most 4 year olds from Japan and it is more likely they will manage the stress of shipment better and have some years before they start to decline.

I agree Ray...

One thing to add and what I have noticed when helping out at Dealers with the unpacking of koi.

I have noticed those who are able to ship Direct and are near an airport the fish usually come in very strong at any season. A good Example is Ogata koi. Ogata San is very near to the airport so the fish are in the bags less longer and less handling as well than if coming from the north.

This is not to say the fish come from the North are weak but situations like Ogata the fish usually come in quite strong.

It comes down to the procedure of the dealer and how they are able put the Koi through a less stressful Qt procedure..


Joe

[MikeM]

Sue: See if you can find a copy of the August, 2002 issue of Nichirin. There is an article giving detailed readings on mud ponds and greenhouse ponds of breeders and dealers. Throughout Niigata and Hiroshima, the mud ponds were mostly in the pH 6.4 to 7.4 range, with most being pH 6.6 to 7.0. The water was extremely soft in most mud ponds, typically being 14 mg/l or less ... which is rainwater soft. The high hardness readings were 46 to 48 mg/l, which is still quite soft. The indoor ponds had pH at a wide range of 6.6 to 8.0... all higher than the mud ponds. In Niigata hardness was typically in the range of 80 to 90 mg/l, with one measurement of 135 mg/l. The indoor ponds in Hiroshima were more varied, ranging from 54 to 126 mg/l. There's a lot more detail in the article regarding particular mineral content levels. There is a good discussion of the difference between raising in the mud pond and finishing in the concrete pond, and mentions the belief that "mellow water" is important for finishing.

Note: The one point that might confuse the reader is a reference to the importance of not using very much fresh water when trying to finish a koi and have pigment develop. When they speak of not using much fresh water, they are talking about limiting the inflow of fresh water to 10% per day in lightly stocked ponds. So, by most U.S. hobbyists' standards, we are talking about a lot of water changes.... the equivalent of daily 10% water changes being considered a small inflow of fresh water.

[Auntiesue]

THANK YOU MIKE!! This is the type of information I was hoping for. I'll see if I can find the issue you referenced, but I'm sure it will be difficult.

EDIT: I googled the mag and found it is published by the ZNA. Anyone have an old copy that I could borrow or perhaps I could get a scanned copy of the article?

[Brutuscz]

This is an interesting thread. My old pond had a ph of 7.2, gh=120-140,tds=150. This pond developed sumi beautifully. My new pond (we moved)has a ph=7.0, GH=40, KH=20 and tds=51. I am waiting to see how this will affect my koi. I assume the growth will improve with the soft water, as will the beni. I will watch, photograph and document closely. Time will tell!!!

[bekko]

Once upon a time on KoiBito we talked about buying koi from a breeder with water similar to what we have at home. That idea really appealed to me because we have fairly hard water, alkalinity about 140, and weak hi in both of our old lines. However, you quickly find that it's easier said than done. As noted, there isn't much background info about differences in water quality at various breeder's facilities and Nigata in general is said to have very soft water. However, the Isawa Nishikigoi Center supposedly uses warm geothermal water. Though they do not advertise it, I'm am pretty sure that any geothermal water is going to be very hard because it comes from deep strata. So, that is the source I went looking for. The male has already finished and has better hi than my old line of gosanke. The females will not finish for another few years, but are looking pretty good. Matsunoske grow faster too.

P.S .to Brutuscz: Why do you think low pH and hardness will promote faster growth? For most types of fish, it's usually the other way around.

-s te veh