The Problem with Jumanji the Ochiba

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold ...The bigger question is why are you having this problem? Protozoan outbreaks are a common result of poor pond hygiene. Is your system accumulating an excessive amount of organic material?

That is the exact question I've been asking myself, Richard. All my water parameters are good, I still do a flow through of fresh well water on a 24/7 basis at about a 10% exchange daily, and leaves are vaccuumed on an as-needed basis, which isn't very often now with most of the pond covered.

Today's tests
Nitrates 0
Nitrites 0
Ammonia 0
PH 7.5
GH 400
Temp 48

Earlier this year I had to treat the pond for anchor worm. Autumn (my other ochiba) had one attached just above her eye, which I pluckt off and another near the base of her dorsal fin that I couldn't, then identified what it was before treating the whole pond. I never noticed any anchor worms on any of the other fish, including Jumanji, but he's a dark fish and back then was not nearly as sociable as he is now, so I could have easily missed something like that then.

And that's the only occurrance of anything amiss in the pond, and that almost 6 months ago.

None of my other fish have anything remotely like this on them. It seems to be localized to just the Ju. Like I said, it started with that round whitish spot on his gill plate which slowly developed over a couple of months time from a small greyish discoloration, spreading outwards and lightening in color to the size it is today and puffing up into a rough sandpaper kitty-tongue disc, which is now soft and flaccid and, I don't have any other word for it, jellified.

One thing I don't understand is that blue pall that mutes the koi's colors--I've seen this on fish that have an excessive slime coat, but Jumanji's is not thick--in fact, just the opposite. Not dry, but not enough lubrication/protection IMHO. Perhaps it's from rubbing, perhaps it's the cold. We'll see how that changes in the QT....
I will raise the temp of the QT to 80 degrees and salt to .6 in the morning. Then hope there is some place open tomorrow where I can get some MG.

Thanks again for your input. It is greatly appreciated.

Marie

[Richard Rombold]

But Russ, with all respect, it doesn't fit. It's a compelling diagnosis but doesn't account for the film on the fish, the manner in which it is spreading or the time line. If these two or three spots were isolated outbreaks on an otherwise healthy fish then maybe. Also, lymphocystis is not widespread or common.

[koiczar]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold I have had limited exposure to pox on koi but have seen numerous cases of pox on mature Goldfish and this in my opinion is not pox. The locations of the two growths are not random viral outbreaks, but predictable areas for disease. Problems with the opercular plates generally result from a fish's response to irritation. Damage to the tip of the dorsal fin is also a common problem area. Excessively high or low pH, handling or disease can cause erosion of the epithelial layer here. Another significant observation is the grayish film developing on the body. Taken together we can make an educated guess. First, not pox. Second, not saprolegina. Good try, but not our guy. This growth is not tissue. I thought keloid tissue, but it doesn't add up. It's not bacterial. It's colonial. It's on the skin. I'd venture epistylis. Rich I thought Epistylus presents as a cottony mass. These lesions are more firm and gelatinous to the touch (based on Marie's explanation). The particular type of lesion or growth is A-typical of lymphocystis. Some folks call it carp pox because they don't know it by any other name. Although they are two different viruses, they both do present nearly identical symptoms. Also, I've seen fish who present with a milky coating on the body, especially when temps drop rather quickly. Even seen it on my own fish occasionally. It seems to go away after the water temp has stabilized (at whatever temp) and the fish get accustomed to it. Seems like it might be a type of Ich or just an extra layer of slime the fish produces due to the sudden temp change. Mike You are on the right track to raise the water temperature and salt the QT tank. Take the water temp up to 80 F and bring the salt up to .6%. Treat with either a MG or acriflavin bath. This could work fine if what you diagnose is the real problem. However, if it's actually pox or lymphocystis the regimen will probably not have any effect whatsoever. Maybe just raising the salt FIRST would be a way to test the theory for the slime coat!? The bigger question is why are you having this problem? Protozoan outbreaks are a common result of poor pond hygiene. Is your system accumulating an excessive amount of organic material?

I've always wondered if this could be the cause of some viral outbreaks in a pre-winter transitional period.

Mike

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar I've always wondered if this could be the cause of some viral outbreaks in a pre-winter transitional period. Mike

Mike, the oddest thing about this is the blue-grey wash over the entire fish--I've seen fish with an extra thick slime coat display this, but Jumanji barely has a slime coat at the moment.

And all the other fish are fine.

This pic was taken mid-summer right after the algae bloom passed. Look very closely at that gill plate and you'll see the beginnings of that spot. And I just noticed this, but there seems to be the beginning of the globule on his dorsal fin too....

[MikeM]

The condition may not appear to be contagious, but if you have the facilities to remove the fish to a hospital tank, I'd do it. If it cannot be isolated, set a period of time during which you will search for a proper diagnosis and treatment, say 30 days. If still no answer, give serious thought to euthanizing. The continuing presence will at best be depressing. At worst, a source of harm to the other fish. Not a pleasant thought. Sorry.

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM The condition may not appear to be contagious, but if you have the facilities to remove the fish to a hospital tank, I'd do it. If it cannot be isolated, set a period of time during which you will search for a proper diagnosis and treatment, say 30 days. If still no answer, give serious thought to euthanizing. The continuing presence will at best be depressing. At worst, a source of harm to the other fish. Not a pleasant thought. Sorry.

I did that before I started this thread, Mike. He's simmering in 75 degree water, which will be 80 degrees in a few more hours. Salt is now up to .6 and the fish thinks it's in a spa in St. Moritz--loving life and schooling with the 4" canary babies.

He will not be going back into the pond until and if there is a positive outcome and a correct diagnosis.

I don't know if you remember the thread or not, but I once posted early-summer about parasites or something evident in the lenses of both the ochiba's eyes after they had been in my Sarassa holding pond for a while. This was after they spent 6 weeks in an indoor Q tank, before the current pond was built. I couldn't get a decent pic to save myself with the old Mavica, and within a few days of being back in the QT the specks in their eyes simply disappeared.

It wasn't very long after, perhaps a week or so after introducing the two to the experimental pond (they were the first and only koi in the pond at the time) that I noticed the anchor worms on Autumn. She let me pull the one off that was attached just above her eye but another at the base of her dorsal I couldn't get to and eventually it too dropped off. Interesting that, even though this wasn't Jumanji, the sites of the bites are almost identical to the growth placements on the fish in question now.

I treated the pond then with 40 pond sized Fluke Tabs, the only thing at my disposal at the time. Never saw another flapping string on either of them, or on any other fish I introduced to the pond thereafter--but as I said, Ju was pretty shy back then, and after the anchor worm incident we had that lovely emerald algae bloom for about a month and I could never get more than a glimpse of this fish close up.

I think all this may be connected to that time, and may well have originated in my Sarassa holding tank that was thick with plants and unfiltered.


It would be interesting to know if anyone has had any fish that got secondary infections (or the like) from anchor worm bites. How long did it take to present, and what did it look like? Anything similar to what is being experienced here now?

Marie

[Sangreaal]

This is the algae bloom in the new pond. I didn't have mechanical filtration at the time (just the shower, and it in bastardized form) so there were a lot of organic fines back then.


This is as far back as I can go pictorially, and I've posted this pic because that grey spot on Jumanji's cheek is evident even this early in his history here. Not raised, I surely would have noticed that, but just a grey-blue discoloration the size of a dress-shirt button.

Hmmm....the initial discoloration is very similar in shade to the bluish grey film on Jumanji now. Since the slime coat is thin, could whatever this is be colonizing all over the skin now that the weather is cold and immune systems depressed? The colder the water has gotten, the more this has seemed to present itself. In fact, it seems as if its gradual emergence may be in some way connected to the gradual lowering of water temperature through summer, fall, and now winter at it's coldest.

M

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold But Russ, with all respect, it doesn't fit. It's a compelling diagnosis but doesn't account for the film on the fish, the manner in which it is spreading or the time line. If these two or three spots were isolated outbreaks on an otherwise healthy fish then maybe. Also, lymphocystis is not widespread or common.

I have seen lymphosystis become very widespread. I have seen Koi covered with it. The film on the Koi is more likely a reaction to slime build up and cold water temps. The film probably has no direct relationship to the waxy spots.

My money is still on Lymphosystis.

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters I have seen lymphosystis become very widespread. I have seen Koi covered with it. The film on the Koi is more likely a reaction to slime build up and cold water temps. The film probably has no direct relationship to the waxy spots. My money is still on Lymphosystis.

Ummmm, Jose? Has Lymphosystis done this overnight?










Besides doing his famous one-minute-he's-dark next-minute-he's light trick (in large part due to the bentonite--my bekko/utsuri canaries did the same thing, washing out all sumi at one point), Jumanji rubbed the raised spot off of his gill plate by digging and rolling around in the bentonite/river sand bottom of the QT. The booger on his dorsal fin is flapping wildly in the breeze now, stringy looking. The lesion on the bottom of the tail tube is also losing the jellification and appears pink underneath--possibly a small ulcer?

Water is 80 degrees.
Salted to .6
Murked with bentonite and super aerated.
No drugs.

Oh and as an addendum, there is no more blue/grey film on the fish at all 24 hours after entering the QT.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal Ummmm, Jose? Has Lymphosystis done this overnight? Besides doing his famous one-minute-he's-dark next-minute-he's light trick (in large part due to the bentonite--my bekko/utsuri canaries did the same thing, washing out all sumi at one point), Jumanji rubbed the raised spot off of his gill plate by digging and rolling around in the bentonite/river sand bottom of the QT. The booger on his dorsal fin is flapping wildly in the breeze now, stringy looking. The lesion on the bottom of the tail tube is also losing the jellification and appears pink underneath--possibly a small ulcer? Water is 80 degrees. Salted to .6 Murked with bentonite and super aerated. No drugs. Oh and as an addendum, there is no more blue/grey film on the fish at all 24 hours after entering the QT.

Si Marie,
Heat and scraping will do this. This looks absolutely like all of the Lymphosystis I have dealt with. I almost always remove it myself and then steralize the area.

It looks like it to me 100%.

Jose