The Problem with Jumanji the Ochiba

[Richard Rombold]

Thanks Marie for the excellent pictures.

Russ, I appreciate your opinion. It's good to have a counterpoint to sharpen one's thinking. I have been pondering this since last night and I came to the conclusion that without scoping this tissue the best course of action would be to treat the fish as earlier recommended and or attempt to scrape the tissue. Lymphocystis has no know cure and it would be vascularized tissue. It would remain unaffected by any treatment and if scraped bleed. Further, lymphocystis is composed of multiple cells and has a distinct globular appearance not seen hear. I am not 100% convinced this was epistylis because of the texture of the growths. However the genus has many species and some are without stalks. The fact that there is no necrotic tissue and that it responded so rapidly to salt would indicate a protozoan like epistylis (if not epistylis). A sessile organism that could grow either as a colony or individually attached to the skin of the fish feeding off detritus but not actively destroying the tissue much the way flukes do. I'm not convinced it's epistylis but it's not viral, fungal or bacterial.

[Sangreaal]

From the dept of fisheries website, epistylis on crayfish:


From the University of Georgia website, lymphocystis:



Same fish with tumor surgically removed:


And saphrolegnia from the OSU website:

[Russell Peters]

Thanks for the pictures Marie. I have never seen any of these conditions in such an advanced stage. It makes a big difference. Thank you.

Russ

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters Thanks for the pictures Marie. I have never seen any of these conditions in such an advanced stage. It makes a big difference. Thank you. Russ

I don't think we'll definitively know what Jumanji has until I get a good microscope and check it out really up-close and personal. I've bid on one on eBay, so if I'm lucky I should have one here by next week.

Koi health is really important, and I hope this thread helps others understand and diagnose this problem in their own fish. I've spent hours scouring the net, and though I've found tons of sites with microscopic pictures and video of all of the conditions I posted pictures of (and a ton of others as well), there are very few actual and good photographs of them on fish and none in particular on koi.

Meanwhile, Jumanji continues to improve in the warm salty muddy water. The mass on his dorsal is beginning to slough off. The lesion under the tail tube is no longer mad pink at the base, but a softer shade of white.

This story may have a happy ending yet....

Marie

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal I don't think we'll definitively know what Jumanji has until I get a good microscope and check it out really up-close and personal. I've bid on one on eBay, so if I'm lucky I should have one here by next week. Koi health is really important, and I hope this thread helps others understand and diagnose this problem in their own fish. I've spent hours scouring the net, and though I've found tons of sites with microscopic pictures and video of all of the conditions I posted pictures of (and a ton of others as well), there are very few actual and good photographs of them on fish and none in particular on koi. Meanwhile, Jumanji continues to improve in the warm salty muddy water. The mass on his dorsal is beginning to slough off. The lesion under the tail tube is no longer mad pink at the base, but a softer shade of white. This story may have a happy ending yet.... Marie

I think this has turned out to be a great thread and a great learning experience for me. I have removed lymphosystis in early stages where it was easy to scrape off and slightly more advanced where there was skin loss and bleeding. After looking at the pictures you posted and reading Richard's opinions, I have developed a different opinion on what I might have been removing at times. I did not realize that epistylis could look like the picture that you posted Marie. It was definitely more in line with Richard's diagnosis and completely different from what I had learned it should look like.
Great information and it looks like you are having a great resolution with the problem Marie.

Thanks again,
Russ

[Sangreaal]

Just bought a compound microscope (capable of even seeing costia) with digital video so I'll be able to share my findings here. It'll be shipped tomorrow.

We'll get to the bottom of this yet and make it a great learning experience for everybody.

Marie

[Richard Rombold]

Russ I appreciate your opinion and you having the guts to put one out there on such an enigmatic problem. It's the back and forth dialogue and collaborative effort that makes this a good learning exercise for the both of us. Thank you Marie for providing such great documentation for us to look at and please update us.

[Sangreaal]

The stuff is still continuing to slough and Jumanji seems to be doing well. Microscope was shipped today so maybe as soon as Monday we'll be able to see what this is, IF it hasn't sloughed completely off by then.

Did an MG treatment and will take more pics tomorrow after a water change. Until then Jumanji says...

[Sangreaal]

Just a quick pic of the Ju in QT--the slime jellies on his dorsal fin and tail tube are gone, totally gone. No ulcer on the tail tube like I thought it might be--looks like new. There is still a ring on his gill plate with small shreds flagging. Perhaps it's not quite dead yet?



Jumanji's gotten really light and ultra sparkley--he even has gin rin on his belly.

Canary fish show no signs of stress or disease, water temp hovering around 75 degrees, salt back down to .1%.

One more water change and it'll be clear enough for some good close ups...

Marie

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal Just a quick pic of the Ju in QT--the slime jellies on his dorsal fin and tail tube are gone, totally gone. No ulcer on the tail tube like I thought it might be--looks like new. There is still a ring on his gill plate with small shreds flagging. Perhaps it's not quite dead yet? Jumanji's gotten really light and ultra sparkley--he even has gin rin on his belly. Canary fish show no signs of stress or disease, water temp hovering around 75 degrees, salt back down to .1%. One more water change and it'll be clear enough for some good close ups... Marie

Thank you for the update, it is nice to see the progress.