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Old 01-05-2007   #11 (permalink)
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Ok guys lets leave kcota out if this thread. It is excellent information and dragging him into it is pointless. Please battle him on other boards and lets just stick to posting the good stuff here. Thanks.
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Old 01-06-2007   #12 (permalink)
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Likewise, Daniel when the USGS FOIA Office reports back on which genotype of VHS was studied and found to be refractory (I, II, III or IV that is impacting fish in the U.S and causing the regulations in question) I will report back on that. No need for anyone to pound on their chest as you call it, but try instead to provide as much information to the public as possible regarding this disease and possible impacts (if any) on koi. According to Mike Robinson, president of Keystone Hatcheries it will at a minimum increase the price of koi in that area. Hopefully that will be the only adverse impact.

And I find your quotes of Goodwin especially interesting “you can infect a fruit fly with the KHV virus in a lab setting if the dosage is high enough, so laboratory induced infection data is somewhat unreliable in the real world” And you also have to deal with a large number of false positives.

I guess that should make us feel better, but as noted by others the stress facing koi in hobbyist cared for conditions might pose a greater threat to them than the hardier magoi variety. You know like with Brady breeding magoi back into his showa to make them stronger and acknowledging kohaku as a fragile fish due to breeding for appearance rather than strength. Just a thought. No chest beating here. Your quotes of Goodwin were relieving to many hobbyists that might have some concerns that a new disease could effect their fish. Let's hope the tranquilizing effect is for the ultimate good.



From:GS-GIO Freedom of Information Act
Toijoehawley@yahoo.com
Subject:Re: FOIA Request: Scientific Source Document
Date:Thursday, January 04, 2007 12:29:31 PM

Dear Mr. Hawley:
The U.S. Geological Survey has received your FOIA request dated January 2, 2007. It has been assigned Request Number 07-35. Please reference this number on any correspondence concerning your request. We will advise you of the status of our response within 20 workdays if we anticipate a delay.

Sincerely,
Deborah Kimball
USGS FOIA Officer


01/02/2007 11:52 AM
To foia@usgs.gov
cc Subject FOIA Request: Scientific Source Document

Date: January 2, 2007
To: USGS FOIA Officer
From: John Hawley, www.KoiCluboftheAir.org
Re: FOIA request for support documentation related to Fish Disease Leaflet 83

USGS FOIA Officer,
Under the Freedom of Information Act I’m requesting supporting scientific documentation for the assertion made in “Fish Disease Leaflet 83” (http://www.lsc.usgs.gov/fhb/leaflets/83.asp) that demonstrates that “Fish shown by experimental challenges to be refractory to VHS virus infection are common carp, Cyprinus carpio; chub, Leuciscus cephalus; Eurasian perch, Perca fluviatilis; roach, L. rutilus; and tench, Tinca tinca.”
The purpose is to determine, which type of VHS genotype was studied and if refractory studies have been conducted on genotype IV, which is effecting various species in the Great Lakes region and has resulted in APHIS regulations.
I’m willing to pay all fees associated with receiving these documents up to $50.
John Hawley, www.KoiCluboftheAir.org
11604 Surfwood Ave.
Jacksonville, Florida, 32246
(904)333-3527

Source:
Fish Disease Leaflet 83
Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia of Fishes
Philip E. McAllister
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, National Fisheries Research Center-Leetown, National Fish Health Research Laboratory, Box 700, Kearneysville, West Virginia. 25430.
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, Fish and Wildlife Service. 1990.
(Revision of Fish Disease Leaflet 6 (1966), "Viral hemorrhagic septicemia of rainbow trout." by Ken Wolf.)
“Fish shown by experimental challenges to be refractory to VHS virus infection are common carp, Cyprinus carpio; chub, Leuciscus cephalus; Eurasian perch, Perca fluviatilis; roach, L. rutilus; and tench, Tinca tinca.”
http://www.lsc.usgs.gov/fhb/leaflets/83.asp
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Old 01-06-2007   #13 (permalink)
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Damn!!!!!

I'm sorry I said anything.
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Old 01-06-2007   #14 (permalink)
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I'm sorry I said anything.
HAHAHA!
You've got the power!
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Old 01-06-2007   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Let's hope the tranquilizing effect is for the ultimate good.
As opposed to the agitation that you seem to enjoy? How is that helping the hobby?

John, admit it, you were trashed in your discussion when your dream world deductions ran into the facts of reality. And none other than the good people at APHIS, the USDA, and Andy Goodwin giving out those facts about VHS. You are wrong, you were proven wrong, but yet you keep on with this asinine ranting of yours. Why?

John, I’m not stupid, your postings and rants, even when held to the light of the truth by quotes from the people that are actually working at the heart of the matter, can only mean one thing. You want face time. Face time to improve your ratings for your “show” Ratings mean you can charge more for those awful commercials you run before and after your shows. If I were a sponsor, I would raise serious hell with you. Further more, as a person that runs around yelling the sky is falling to a large number of that company’s customers; well I would wash my hands of you in a heartbeat.

You pass yourself off as a Paul Harvey, but you act and report like Howard Stern. Only difference is that at least Howard knows what he is doing and why, and is honest about it.

Tell me John, how are you serving the best interests of the hobby. Be truthful, and not give us some spiel on how you are a legend in your own mind out to save the hobby single handedly.

d
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Old 01-06-2007   #16 (permalink)
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As opposed to the agitation that you seem to enjoy? How is that helping the hobby?

John, admit it, you were trashed in your discussion when your dream world deductions ran into the facts of reality. And none other than the good people at APHIS, the USDA, and Andy Goodwin giving out those facts about VHS. You are wrong, you were proven wrong, but yet you keep on with this asinine ranting of yours. Why?

John, I’m not stupid, your postings and rants, even when held to the light of the truth by quotes from the people that are actually working at the heart of the matter, can only mean one thing. You want face time. Face time to improve your ratings for your “show” Ratings mean you can charge more for those awful commercials you run before and after your shows. If I were a sponsor, I would raise serious hell with you. Further more, as a person that runs around yelling the sky is falling to a large number of that company’s customers; well I would wash my hands of you in a heartbeat.

You pass yourself off as a Paul Harvey, but you act and report like Howard Stern. Only difference is that at least Howard knows what he is doing and why, and is honest about it.

Tell me John, how are you serving the best interests of the hobby. Be truthful, and not give us some spiel on how you are a legend in your own mind out to save the hobby single handedly.

d

Your comments have gone from something about VHS to seemingly nothing in the above post, but personal insults intent on drawing me into doing likewise. I appreciate that you can broker your activities on boards that might favorably support your efforts in that regard, but won't be brought into it again. However, I do think it important to address retorts involving the science. Likewise, if a few select quotes from Andy are meant to prove VHS is not a threat for the koi hobby and industry write that story and present it to trade and hobby publications. As I've had Andy on and taped conversations about what he thinks important numerous times I can certainly do the same again and ask him to address this issue asking some of the same questions you did and others and writeup virtually every word he says as I've been doing in the Fish Wrap newsletter versus cherry picking quotes. I challenge you to stick to the science and broaden the scope of available info for hobbyists and those in related industries. That I believe is good for the hobby. If Howard does that then more power to him.
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Old 01-06-2007   #17 (permalink)
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There you go again!

Challenge me to stick to science, when you refuse. All you want to do is post theory and personal deductions to cause panic and confusion. But not science.

So therefor, while not done on the subject of viruses, I am done talking to a fool. The most you do is quote the lack of a mention on some old work, talk to a bunch of fish farmers that are more worried about bait or stocking fish, which is their bread and butter, not Koi, and yet you try and drag Koi into the conversation.

So besides your hold premise being foolish, it is very dishonest to boot.

As has been posted, if it acts, sounds, smells like a troll, more than likely it is.

d
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Old 01-07-2007   #18 (permalink)
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Daniel again your comments appear to me to have gone from something about VHS to seemingly nothing in the above post, but personal insults. If both of us interview Andy separately on the same subject I’d hope we could draw similar conclusions as long as his opinions are the same. And as you quoted him noting most anything could be infected by VHS surely that brings to bear some legitimate concerns amongst hobbyists and breeders? As someone who is very much involved in koi-related diseases and considering he is also involved in VHS research also did he vehemently protest any hobbyist or breeder concerns regarding the possible effects of VHS on the hobby?
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Old 01-07-2007   #19 (permalink)
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John

I have posted the science to prove your bad deduction theories as false. You intend to argue the point even though you are wrong. Im glad you have the time, I dont. There is an old saying that he who argues with a fool is a greater fool.

So there ends my posts on the subject unless you can produce science, not heresay.

Dream on

d
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Old 01-07-2007   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dOHd View Post
John

I have posted the science to prove your bad deduction theories as false. You intend to argue the point even though you are wrong. Im glad you have the time, I dont. There is an old saying that he who argues with a fool is a greater fool.

So there ends my posts on the subject unless you can produce science, not heresay.

Dream on

d
I vote for taking this to the "Outside" please.
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