Salt . . .

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters Hey Don, I know I probably asked you this before, but are you retired?

Don't tell my wife!

[dOHd]

Mitch, that is what finally broke the problems here with us. Finally had a customer that admitted to adding salt to the pond each week. Up til then, of all the ones that had the same problem, she was the only one. So now if they display issues that could be related, the first question is not do they add salt, but have they ever been to her place.

The plants would have been a give away, but many do not keep plants in with the large Koi. When I started seeing fish with a large amount of slime coat, or none at all, looking for the world like they had been skined, I knew something was up.

When you rely on what the customer tells you because you either dont have the time for all those pond calls for free, or they dont want to pay you for your time, you are very limmited to what you can do to get to the bottom.

As to getting tired of repeating the same thing to newbies, no, not yet. But I am tired of repeating things to those that dont want to listen or learn, but want to waste your time. For those I have no patience.

d

[koicluboftheair]

Seems you have compiled a formadable list clarifying the issue koicop. Considering the Koi Health Advisor Program, in the Water Quality Section continues to promote the use of salt along with the principle text for KHAs “Advanced Koi Care; For Veterinarians and Professional Koi Keepers” I hope you get all this to Spike Cover for his attention.

Excerpt:
“Common salt, sodium chloride, NaCl, has been termed “The KOI Wonder Drug”.A misnomer perhaps, but salt is a proven staple in the health care and maintenance of Koi worldwide…
The addition of one to two pounds of salt per hundred gallons of water (1.25-2.5 ppt) is recommended for most ponds, especially in the Spring and Fall. This is a fairly conservative dosage, but unless one has an accurate measurement method, higher concentrations should be avoided. If nitrite is present, two pounds of salt per hundred gallons is appropriate to reduce the nitrite toxicity. After the initial application, the dosage applies ONLY to the amount of water being taken out and replaced, NOT to the amount of water in the entire pond, and NOT to water being added to replace that lost by evaporation. Except for very short-term medicinal baths at concentrations often around 25 ppt (1 pound per 5 gallons), and administered under tightly controlled conditions, it is not recommended that Koi be subjected to a salinity exceeding 5 ppt (4 pounds per hundred gallons), especially for extended periods.”
http://www.akca.org/kht/H2oQual.pdf

[Russell Peters]

[quote=koicluboftheair;72367]Seems you have compiled a formadable list clarifying the issue koicop. Considering the Koi Health Advisor Program, in the Water Quality Section continues to promote the use of salt along with the principle text for KHAs “Advanced Koi Care; For Veterinarians and Professional Koi Keepers” I hope you get all this to Spike Cover for his attention.

Why do you need to be so antagonistic? Is there something you are trying to accomplish here?

[Sangreaal]

Thanks for the salt report, Don.

I've been purposely dragging my feet in doing anything further with Jumanji and my pond until the microscope gets here, although I have bought enough salt to dose the pond to .3%. Haven't done that yet because I wanted to research more about treating koi in a winter environment with water under 50 degrees.

All of the info you've posted has been very informative and helpful in deciding what to do at this present time, this delicate time in the cycle of my koi's lives.

When I can scrape and scope to really see what's going on (expect there'll be a Microscope's Gone Wild series coming ), then I will decide on a further step of action, which may still be the use of salt.

I have the unique situation of being able to salt the whole pond and clear it with flow through either quickly or gradually. I've also recently found out that my source water is warmer than the ambient pond temp with minimal flow through, so it is theoretical that I may be able to regulate the pond temp somewhat by regulating the flow of warmer water through the pond. So far, it's kept the pond from going below 40 degrees, which I'm convinced it would have earlier this year during the first cold snap if I had shut it off. I've also considered running the water input line through a compost heap to warm it even further on the way to the pond.

But back to salt and its use in winter.

With a flow through system like mine it would be hard to keep the original dosage of salt for any length of time. Can protozoa and parasites be killed in a short amount of time using salt, or would I just be innoculating them against it for spring given the nature of my system?

Marie

[mitten]

Marie, please be forewarned, threads with "gone wild" in the title will only end up outside, in part because Cocoyboy will feel compelled to give us accurate "gone wild" pics and then JNorth will be compelled to protect the board's decency.

I keep my thinking about salt as a medicine on a parallel track to the use of antibiotics in our health. Salt was a good thing but its use as a omnisolve (don't spellchek that, it ain't a word.) has robbed it of any real effectiveness as a specific medicine. Having it in my tanks really bothers me. I won't put it in my ponds, no reason to, and I will seldom use it even when bringing in new fish.

Its use against paracites would have required a balancing act to be and remain being effective. Balance a high enough dose to eradicate all paracites without it being a high enough dose to eradicate the fish. The chance to always use a 100% effective treatment, never permitting survivors to gain resistance, is gone surely and was likely never there. It is just salt, not medicine.

Its redeeming value? Cheap. Not enough redemption for me.

Mickey the windowman

[koicluboftheair]

[quote=Russell Peters;72372]

Quote: Originally Posted by koicluboftheair Seems you have compiled a formadable list clarifying the issue koicop. Considering the Koi Health Advisor Program, in the Water Quality Section continues to promote the use of salt along with the principle text for KHAs “Advanced Koi Care; For Veterinarians and Professional Koi Keepers” I hope you get all this to Spike Cover for his attention. Why do you need to be so antagonistic? Is there something you are trying to accomplish here?

Oh, I apologize if my question is antagonistic. I'm preparing a piece for an AKCA member club newsletter in the S.E. about the increased threat of Aeromonas Alley with our warm winter and a sidebar about salt as a recommended treatment via the KHA program and Advanced Koi Care; For Veterinarians and Professional Koi Keepers. A variation will also be distributed in the KCOTA newsletter and I'd hate to send out dated info.

Thank you very much.

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by mitten Marie, please be forewarned, threads with "gone wild" in the title will only end up outside, in part because Cocoyboy will feel compelled to give us accurate "gone wild" pics and then JNorth will be compelled to protect the board's decency. I keep my thinking about salt as a medicine on a parallel track to the use of antibiotics in our health. Salt was a good thing but its use as a omnisolve (don't spellchek that, it ain't a word.) has robbed it of any real effectiveness as a specific medicine. Having it in my tanks really bothers me. I won't put it in my ponds, no reason to, and I will seldom use it even when bringing in new fish. Its use against paracites would have required a balancing act to be and remain being effective. Balance a high enough dose to eradicate all paracites without it being a high enough dose to eradicate the fish. The chance to always use a 100% effective treatment, never permitting survivors to gain resistance, is gone surely and was likely never there. It is just salt, not medicine. Its redeeming value? Cheap. Not enough redemption for me. Mickey the windowman

I will keep this all under advisement, Mickey, especially the "Gone Wild" admonishment

There has got to be a median ground in the argument to salt vs not to salt, whether for parasites or other factors. For instance, I wonder about the water softening effect since my source water is so very hard and the pond ambient temp is so low (which may be at the crux of my problem re: thin slime coats, which in turn opens up the door for harmful organisms to enter). Could this be a scenario that would warrant the use of salt, or is there something safer to come to the same end--softer water through winter? Remember this is not a closed system like most hobbyist ponds. There is fresh water going through at a minimum of 5% exchange per day (and may be more if I opt to try warming the source water to raise pond temps...)

Marie

[schildkoi]

KCOTA seems to be saying that there is a conflict between the KHA program and what was posted by JR and REC (through Koi cop)? Truth be known, I don't see a conflict at all.

Quote: Seems you have compiled a formadable list clarifying the issue koicop. Considering the Koi Health Advisor Program, in the Water Quality Section continues to promote the use of salt along with the principle text for KHAs “Advanced Koi Care; For Veterinarians and Professional Koi Keepers” I hope you get all this to Spike Cover for his attention. Excerpt: “Common salt, sodium chloride, NaCl, has been termed “The KOI Wonder Drug”.A misnomer perhaps, but salt is a proven staple in the health care and maintenance of Koi worldwide… The addition of one to two pounds of salt per hundred gallons of water (1.25-2.5 ppt) is recommended for most ponds, especially in the Spring and Fall. This is a fairly conservative dosage, but unless one has an accurate measurement method, higher concentrations should be avoided. If nitrite is present, two pounds of salt per hundred gallons is appropriate to reduce the nitrite toxicity. After the initial application, the dosage applies ONLY to the amount of water being taken out and replaced, NOT to the amount of water in the entire pond, and NOT to water being added to replace that lost by evaporation. Except for very short-term medicinal baths at concentrations often around 25 ppt (1 pound per 5 gallons), and administered under tightly controlled conditions, it is not recommended that Koi be subjected to a salinity exceeding 5 ppt (4 pounds per hundred gallons), especially for extended periods.” http://www.akca.org/kht/H2oQual.pdf

Let's break this down, shall we?

Quote: The addition of one to two pounds of salt per hundred gallons of water (1.25-2.5 ppt) is recommended for most ponds, especially in the Spring and Fall.

The first thing that needs to be understood is "conversions". 1.25-2.25 ppt tranlates to .125% - .225%. Didn't Koicop's references say .1-.2%? Now keep in mind, if I am not mistaken, the common salinity meters are farely accurate but still have a +/- accuracy of .04%. So, the .025% differences cited are really a non-factor.

Second, Dr. Nick St. Erne in his book, Advanced Koi Keeping also says: "especially in spring and fall". Actually for the same reasons that Koicop's references state, to off set nitites during times when filters may be less than necessary due to water temps being such that the biofilm is not at peak efficiencies to handle possible higher nitrites.

As for "Aeromonous alley?" The key there isn't salt. Having an environment with low cfu counts and low to non exisitent parasites virtually eliminates this "exposure." In other words, reasonable stocking levels in a clean, well maintained pond/filter system.

Steve

[Russell Peters]

[quote=koicluboftheair;72381]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters Oh, I apologize if my question is antagonistic. I'm preparing a piece for an AKCA member club newsletter in the S.E. about the increased threat of Aeromonas Alley with our warm winter and a sidebar about salt as a recommended treatment via the KHA program and Advanced Koi Care; For Veterinarians and Professional Koi Keepers. A variation will also be distributed in the KCOTA newsletter and I'd hate to send out dated info. Thank you very much.

I don't buy it for a second. You are trying to pit Don against the AKCA KHA program and show that the program information is flawed.