| Honmei
Join Date: May 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 2,505
| For the record . . .
As usual, I’ve got to say: What’s your agenda, Troll? Three posts from you, John, ripping a primer I put together for newbies, with links to what some top koi hobbyists have to say about using salt (you’re welcome, Sangreaal and Lawanna)? Jeesh, why attack me, John? After all, they’re not my posts, not my words? Think you got me surrounded, hemmed in and cowering in fear, do you? In your dreams, bone head. We know what you’re up to (thanks, Russell and Mike), ‘cause we’ve seen this kind of behavior from you so often before. 1. I’ve chatted with Spike Cover in person (he lives local, doncha know) and he don’t need no stinkin’ advice from me. 2. I’m also familiar with Norm Meck’s paper. In fact, I referenced it as source material last August in this post: Remove Chlorine and Chloramine http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/showthread.php?p=58813&highlight=norm+meck#post588 13 Post #20 Section 3, Applicable Literature Fifth item AKCA, Pond Water Chemistry, by Norm Meck http://www.akca.org/kht/H2oQual.pdf. No surprises for me there, Tricky Dick. Norm’s paper was copyrighted 1996, 1999, and 2000. The salinity section (which starts on p. 21) was last revised 10/30/01. [All as per his page 1. DPC] That means it was written 10 years ago, long before the KHA program was created in 2001, and hasn’t been updated in five years. It’s a very good paper, but do you think Norm just might have changed some of his positions since then? Maybe just a few? Maybe just a little? Huh??? As a reputed journalist, shouldn’t you have wanted to know whether your weapon which you chose was still valid before you tried to trip me up with it? In any case, I didn’t reference his position on salting the pond Spring and Fall precisely because I didn’t believe that that one statement, in particular, reflected the leading edge of evolved koi keeping in 2007; the rest of his paper is textbook (pun intended). If you want to know what Norm believes these days on that one point do your own research – but I guarantee it won’t change anything I’ve posted, or anything the folks looking for help need to know. Maybe you can email a FOIA request to someone who cares? 3. This paper was written by an individual (Norm) before the creation of the program (KHA). If it’s used as a teaching aid in the program, fine. But in no case can that be construed as constituting an official (or delimiting) AKCA or KHA position on the multiple uses of salt in our hobby – all of which involve tradeoffs, with cost/benefit ratios that constantly evolve with time. There’s a difference between a mantra and a guideline – and you’ve confused the two, cheerio feeder. 4. Like Steve Childers said (thanks, Steve), I don’t see – nor will I try to artificially create – any conflict between anyone or anything I’ve referenced and the KHA Program. Notice that Norm, himself, said (and I quote from his paper): “There is some disagreement about salt in Koi ponds.” It's in bold below (just in case your beady little eyes missed it when you abstracted those misleading quotes from his paper). 5. You state: “Personally I have to place faith in what the AKCA Koi Health Advisor Program continues to state in support of the use of salt until that program changes direction if necessitated by the need to be accurate.” Tell us: What exactly are they telling you to place your faith in, Johnnie Boy? And how does that differ in any substantive way from anything JR and REC wrote? What are you gonna do, tell the world that you, the great, the one, the only Hot Air Hawley, salt your low end tropical water garden Spring and Fall? Please, please, please – say it’s true so we can all laugh you out of town! While we’re on Norm’s paper, he states: “Although salt in higher concentrations may slow some disease causing bacterial growth in the pond, the predominantly accepted theories ascribe the primary benefits of salt to lowering the osmotic pressure. This reduces the effort the fish must expend in eliminating the excess water. The saved energy is then available for use by the fish's own immune system to take care of other potential problems. The presence of salt also helps counteract any nitrite toxicity.” It's in bold below (again, just in case your squinty little eyes missed it when you abstracted those quotes from his paper). No conflicts there, o’ mighty pond salter. Just trade-offs that knowledgeable koi keepers should keep in mind and judiciously apply – if and when they’re needed. Come to think of it, John, maybe you’re a KHA? Have you taken and passed all their classes and exams? Do you think you speak for the program? Didn’t think so. As for me, I wouldn’t presume to – as opposed to how you attempt to wrap yourself in their flag in a vacuous attempt to boost your own lack of credibility in the hobby. And as for Doc J's salt mythinformation, gimme a break: He has an endorsement for Melafix on his site, too – so how many bottles of that do you use in your pond? How often? While we're at it, wanna go for the Doc J trifecta and talk about how he treats floaters??? Sews rocks in their bellies, I swear to God! 6. Since that’s the only mention of disease &/or parasites in Norm’s Salinity section, what do you mean by “the increased threat of Aeromonas Alley with our warm winter and a sidebar about salt as a recommended treatment via the KHA program.” What does a warm winter have to do with aeromonas? What does salt have to do with aeromonas? How is salt a recommended treatment for aeromonas via the KHA Program? Can you even explain this gobbledygook? (Can’t wait to hear this one, folks.) And if you do want to try, see point #7 below. In any case, Norm teaches the basic water chemistry portion of the KHA Program – but the health portion is taught by Sandy Yosha, PhD, DVM. So shouldn’t you be quoting her, instead of trying to twist Norm’s words on water chemistry and salt to uses for which they weren’t intended? Dr. Yosha’s AKCA KHA PDF file (37 pages) has 27 mentions of salt. Have fun! (In shop class they teach kids not to use a hammer when a screwdriver is needed. Guess he played hooky that day.) 7. As for you writing an article on Aeromonas Alley for a local koi club? In Florida, maybe? Sidebar about salt? That’s too funny. This is 2007, dude. You still wearing bell bottom trousers and disco boots, Johnnie? What’s that, you want some help? Why don’t you start your own damn thread (instead of trying to hijack this one)? I’m sure LOTS of your ‘friends’ will help you out. Hah, hah, hah! 8. Before I go, I’d just like to comment on the delicious irony of a Troll like you choosing a cartooned, steroid juicing, narcissistic macho-macho man for your avatar. Swear to God, I can hear the Village People singing about having fun at the YMCA every freaking time I see it. ROFLMAO 9. Finally, like Brett Rowley said when you attacked him: “You OTOH are in search of something. Not sure what, but you keep it up and you won’t have a shred of credibility left. Lose that and for what you are trying to do, you ain’t gonna have nuthin'.” Personally, I think you’ve long since passed that point. So why don’t you just go back to the bridge (or rock) you call home and crawl under it? I have nothing more to say to you and I have long since lost interest in anything you might have to say to me. That having being said, please do not post on this thread again. Thank you. 10. For the record here is Norm’s entire section on salinity for everyone to read (not just the little cherry-picked section Johnnie Boy abstracted). SALINITY Common salt, sodium chloride, NaCl, has been termed "The KOI Wonder Drug". A misnomer perhaps, but salt is a proven staple in the health care and maintenance of Koi worldwide. Koi maintain an internal concentration of salt in their body fluids higher than that of their liquid environment. Osmosis causes water to transfer from the lower salinity of the pond water into the tissues of the fish. This additional water build up must be eliminated by the kidneys. Although salt in higher concentrations may slow some disease causing bacterial growth in the pond, the predominantly accepted theories ascribe the primary benefits of salt to lowering the osmotic pressure. This reduces the effort the fish must expend in eliminating the excess water. The saved energy is then available for use by the fish's own immune system to take care of other potential problems. The presence of salt also helps counteract any nitrite toxicity. In some cold climate areas, it is added in the Winter to lower the freezing point of the water. Salt can cause pond plant damage as the concentration increases. Floating plants, (water hyacinth, water lettuce, etc.) are affected at lower concentrations than most bog plants. Related, salt may provide some minor control of algae in the higher concentrations. The amount of salt dissolved in water is termed the salinity and is measured either as a per cent, in parts-per-thousand (ppt), or in parts-per-million (ppm) (where 10 ppt = 1 % = 10000 ppm). The more common parts-per-thousand measurement is the weight of the salt in pounds per thousand pounds of water (about 125 gallons). Pond-keepers often talk about the pounds of salt per hundred gallons of water. Since 100 gallons of pure water weighs about 800 pounds, one pound of salt per hundred gallons equates to a salinity of 1.25 ppt (0.125% or 1250 ppm). (1 ppt = 0.8 pounds per hundred gallons) [Note: Koi internal fluid salinity is on the order of9 ppt (about the same as ours). Sea water is around 35 ppt to 70 ppt depending upon geographical location. The Great Salt Lake has a nominal concentration of about 250 ppt.] There is some disagreement about salt in Koi ponds. Our San Diego tap water often has a salinity of up to 0.5 ppt. This amount cannot be tasted but we drink it and we put it into our ponds as make up water. If our Koi were put into an absolutely pure (distilled) water environment, the osmotic pressure would be so high that some would be unable to eliminate the excess water and would die almost as if by drowning. On the other hand, if the salinity approaches that of the internal tissues of the fish, the osmosis process will decrease or even reverse. This can cause the fish to die, essentially of dehydration. Any discussions should therefore center not on should salt be in the pond but how much. Salinity acceptable range: 0 - 5 ppt The addition of one to two pounds of salt per hundred gallons of water (1.25-2.5 ppt) is recommended for most ponds, especially in the Spring and Fall. This is a fairly conservative dosage but unless one has an accurate measurement method, higher concentrations should be avoided. If nitrite is present, two pounds of salt per hundred gallons is appropriate to reduce the nitrite toxicity. After the initial application, the dosage applies ONLY to the amount of water being taken out and replaced, NOT to the Amount of water in the entire pond, and NOT to water being added to replace that lost by evaporation. Except for very short-term medicinal baths at concentrations often around 25 ppt (1 pound per 5 gallons), and administered under tightly controlled conditions, it is not recommended that Koi be subjected to a salinity exceeding 5 ppt (4 pounds per hundred gallons), especially for extended periods. Salinity levels are normally maintained by the addition of salt to increase it and by water change outs to decrease it. Introduce the salt, if possible, at the discharge side of the bio-converter (not at the bio-converter inlet nor directly into the pond). If the addition must be made directly into the pond, dissolve the salt in a bucket of pond water and distribute it evenly around the edges of the pond. Inquisitive Koi will check to see if any new addition to the pond might be something to eat. Although they will probably not swallow the pieces of salt, direct contact of crystalline salt with the fish for more than a few seconds can cause injuries similar to bums. When making the initial or any large application, it is probably better to divide it into two to four daily partial additions rather than putting it in all at once. Inexpensive and quite pure solar-dried or kiln-dried salt used in home water softeners is available at most supermarkets and home improvement centers. Do not use pelletized water softener salt that has binding agents or any type of iodized salt. The floating hydrometers that are used to measure the salinity of salt water aquariums will not supply the accuracy necessary for use in a Koi pond. Electronic conductivity meters will give an indication of the amount of salt but can give false readings due to other substances in the water. A chemical test kit is available from LaMotte that is designed to measure 0-20 ppt. By increasing the sample size by four and dividing the reading by four, the kit can be used to measure our desired range of 0-5 ppt. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals also has an inexpensive salinity test kit available that is quite accurate over the designed range of 0-2.4 ppt. The water sample can be mixed with an equal amount of distilled water and then multiply the reading by two to extend the range to 0-4.8ppt. A salinity test kit is not considered to be a requirement for the average pond but one should be used if attempting to maintain salinity levels above 4 ppt. Additional uses/cautions/concerns re salt use found in Norm’s Paper: p. 7: The addition of salt helps reduce the toxic effects [of nitrite. DPC] significantly but should only be used as an interim measure, not as an ongoing treatment. p. 9: This is why the plants in your garden can flourish from being watered with the waste water from your pond (assuming you haven't added too much salt). p. 16: Impurities added to the water (i.e. salt) or an increase in altitude (above sea level) further decrease these saturation levels. Four pounds of salt per hundred gallons of water (5 ppt) will decrease the oxygen saturation levels about 1 mg/I. p. 24: Example: It is desired to decrease the Salt in a pond by one half. Any of the following will have the same approximate result: a. Seven successive 10% change outs. b. One 25% change out followed by four 10%. c. Two successive 25% change outs followed by one 10%. d. One 50% change out.
__________________
Don
Koi Kichi & Water Garden Club, AKCA
ZNA, Southern California
Southern California Koi Club, AKCA
CKHPA |
01-08-2007
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