Salt . . .

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop As usual, I’ve got to say: What’s your agenda, Troll? Three posts from you, John, ripping a primer I put together for newbies, with links to what some top koi hobbyists have to say about using salt (you’re welcome, Sangreaal and Lawanna)? Jeesh, why attack me, John? And as for Doc J's salt mythinformation, gimme a break: He has an endorsement for Melafix on his site, too – so how many bottles of that do you use in your pond? How often? While we're at it, wanna go for the Doc J trifecta and talk about how he treats floaters??? Sews rocks in their bellies, I swear to God! ,...Swear to God, I can hear the Village People singing about having fun at the YMCA every freaking time I see it. ROFLMAO

Wow! Where did I rip you? I trust your wiser than Veterinarian Eric Johnson on the subject of salt and these other things you mention. As for the suggestions of homosexuality I'm not sure where you want to go with that. Thanks for all the tips and the clearer understanding that the KHA program does not promote the use of salt or does, which is it? And yea, I think I've heard of Sandra Yosha. She lives in my neck o-the-woods or at least moved down near Tampa town a couple of months ago. I'll email her to find out from the source about the use of salt since you suggest it. Oh, wait! We interviewed her in October. Maybe I can just go back and listen to the tape? As for Norm's piece maybe ask him if he could have the material that he wrote for the program updated if you think it is outdated. He still grades the tests of that same material. And yes, I would know from experience.
Sorry to be so wrong in your opinion, but thanks for helping put this person of lesser intelligence who hasn't learned all he needs to know to be a qualified high end hobbyist yet. I'll keep working on it and thank you for your guidance. I really appreciate it sir.

humbly submitted,
John

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop A Norm’s paper was copyrighted 1996, 1999, and 2000. The salinity section (which starts on p. 21) was last revised 10/30/01. [All as per his page 1. DPC] That means it was written 10 years ago, long before the KHA program was created in 2001, and hasn’t been updated in five years. It’s a very good paper, but do you think Norm just might have changed some of his positions since then? Maybe just a few? Maybe just a little? Huh??? As a reputed journalist, shouldn’t you have wanted to know whether your weapon which you chose was still valid before you tried to trip me up with it? In any case, I didn’t reference his position on salting the pond Spring and Fall precisely because I didn’t believe that that one statement, in particular, reflected the leading edge of evolved koi keeping in 2007; the rest of his paper is textbook (pun intended). If you want to know what Norm believes these days on that one point do your own research – but I guarantee it won’t change anything I’ve posted, or anything the folks looking for help need to know. Maybe you can email a FOIA request to someone who cares? 3. This paper was written by an individual (Norm) before the creation of the program (KHA). If it’s used as a teaching aid in the program, fine. But in no case can that be construed as constituting an official (or delimiting) AKCA or KHA position on the multiple uses of salt in our hobby – all of which involve tradeoffs, with cost/benefit ratios that constantly evolve with time. There’s a difference between a mantra and a guideline – and you’ve confused the two, cheerio feeder. 4. Like Steve Childers said (thanks, Steve), I don’t see – nor will I try to artificially create – any conflict between anyone or anything I’ve referenced and the KHA Program. Notice that Norm, himself, said (and I quote from his paper): “There is some disagreement about salt in Koi ponds.” It's in bold below (just in case your beady little eyes missed it when you abstracted those misleading quotes from his paper). 5. You state: “Personally I have to place faith in what the AKCA Koi Health Advisor Program continues to state in support of the use of salt until that program changes direction if necessitated by the need to be accurate.” Tell us: What exactly are they telling you to place your faith in, Johnnie Boy? And how does that differ in any substantive way from anything JR and REC wrote? What are you gonna do, tell the world that you, the great, the one, the only Hot Air Hawley, salt your low end tropical water garden Spring and Fall? Please, please, please – say it’s true so we can all laugh you out of town! ....... And as for Doc J's salt mythinformation, gimme a break: He has an endorsement for Melafix on his site, too – so how many bottles of that do you use in your pond? How often? While we're at it, wanna go for the Doc J trifecta and talk about how he treats floaters??? Sews rocks in their bellies, I swear to God! 6. Since that’s the only mention of disease &/or parasites in Norm’s Salinity section, what do you mean by “the increased threat of Aeromonas Alley with our warm winter and a sidebar about salt as a recommended treatment via the KHA program.” What does a warm winter have to do with aeromonas? What does salt have to do with aeromonas? How is salt a recommended treatment for aeromonas via the KHA Program? Can you even explain this gobbledygook? (Can’t wait to hear this one, folks.) And if you do want to try, see point #7 below. 7. As for you writing an article on Aeromonas Alley for a local koi club? In Florida, maybe? Sidebar about salt? That’s too funny. This is 2007, dude. You still wearing bell bottom trousers and disco boots, Johnnie? What’s that, you want some help? Why don’t you start your own damn thread (instead of trying to hijack this one)? I’m sure LOTS of your ‘friends’ will help you out. Hah, hah, hah!

I believe it fair to say Carlson's (REC) statements in another thread address these issues better than I can at:
http://koi-bito.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5517&page=7
along with those from his AKCA continuing ed section: http://www.akca.org/kht/coldwater.pdf

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by koicluboftheair I believe it fair to say Carlson's (REC) statements in another thread address these issues better than I can.

Well, for once you're spot on, John -- REC's statements are better than yours.

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop Well, for once you're spot on, John -- REC's statements are better than yours.

Yep, and they line up much closer to Doc Johnson's than yours I reckon.


Salt - by Doc Johnson I recommend that you use salt, before you try anything else for parasites. I recommend salt so often because it has so many benefits over other medicants.
Namely:
1) It does not harm the majority of fish species.
2) It does not push sick fish "over the edge."
3) It eliminates, QUICKLY, 7 of 9 parasites I can easily recall.
4) It does not get bound out of the system by organics or sunlight.
5) It does not pose a health risk to humans contacting it.
6) It is CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP.
and 7) It WON'T harm your filter!
http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...me=Medications

cheers!

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by koicluboftheair Yep, and they line up much closer to Doc Johnson's than yours I reckon. Salt - by Doc Johnson I recommend that you use salt, before you try anything else for parasites. I recommend salt so often because it has so many benefits over other medicants. Namely: 1) It does not harm the majority of fish species. 2) It does not push sick fish "over the edge." 3) It eliminates, QUICKLY, 7 of 9 parasites I can easily recall. 4) It does not get bound out of the system by organics or sunlight. 5) It does not pose a health risk to humans contacting it. 6) It is CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP. and 7) It WON'T harm your filter! http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...me=Medications cheers!

Then, once again, you would be wrong. Flat wrong. Not only that, but it proves you haven't learned a damn thing on this thread. Nothing.

You say REC's statements "line up much closer to Doc Johnson's" on the use of salt to control parasites than mine?

Doc J says "3) It eliminates, QUICKLY, 7 of 9 parasites I can easily recall."

Rec says (p. 1 of this thread) in SALT: THE BASICS

6. Once upon a time we believed two things to be true: 1) Salt killed most parasites and 2) higher levels of salt in the pond during winter/cold water times were good to fend off parasite attacks. We now know neither of these are true statements.

I believe that's game, set and match. Hasta la vista, baby.

[JasPR]

this is kinda like 'shooting ducks--err--aaa-- koi in a barrel' !

Not only is the 7 our of 9 not right, the idea of salt as harmful to aeromonas and not harmful to biofilter bacteria is not only illogical, its also wrong.
Salt is a helpful tonic - nothing more , nothing less. Ironically the more you use it and condition your system and its inhabitants ( both large ones and the very very tiny ones) the less helpful it becomes. And DO remember, salt works in certain applications because it is an IRRITANT ( much like certain posters! LOLs) But over time it becomes an astringent, causing a cracking of the winter slime coat that is not generated as actively in winter as summer. Lucky as with most things we try and add to 'help' our koi, they can withstand our 'good intentions' due to their hardy nature.

JR

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop Then, once again, you would be wrong. Flat wrong. Not only that, but it proves you haven't learned a damn thing on this thread. Nothing. You say REC's statements "line up much closer to Doc Johnson's" on the use of salt to control parasites than mine? Doc J says "3) It eliminates, QUICKLY, 7 of 9 parasites I can easily recall." Rec says (p. 1 of this thread) in SALT: THE BASICS 6. Once upon a time we believed two things to be true: 1) Salt killed most parasites and 2) higher levels of salt in the pond during winter/cold water times were good to fend off parasite attacks. We now know neither of these are true statements. I believe that's game, set and match. Hasta la vista, baby.

haha! "7 of 9 parasites," which ones was he referring to and did that 7 of 9 from your perspective mean there are 9 parasites specifically and only 9 that effect koi and salt eliminates 7 of them? Have you asked Johnson specifically which 9 parasites he was referring to? You could be right on, but rather than saying all the meanspirited things you have about him maybe demonstrate specifically that he is wrong and have him change or update his information like you suggested Meek needed to do with what you consider dated info about salt.

I havn't learned anything, lol!

[KoiCop]

Thanks, JR.

Having quoted you extensively on this thread's initial post, I'm glad to see you're back on 'Bito and defending your turf.

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR this is kinda like 'shooting ducks--err--aaa-- koi in a barrel' ! Not only is the 7 our of 9 not right, the idea of salt as harmful to aeromonas and not harmful to biofilter bacteria is not only illogical, its also wrong. Salt is a helpful tonic - nothing more , nothing less. Ironically the more you use it and condition your system and its inhabitants ( both large ones and the very very tiny ones) the less helpful it becomes. And DO remember, salt works in certain applications because it is an IRRITANT ( much like certain posters! LOLs) But over time it becomes an astringent, causing a cracking of the winter slime coat that is not generated as actively in winter as summer. Lucky as with most things we try and add to 'help' our koi, they can withstand our 'good intentions' due to their hardy nature. JR

Yea, I consider certain posters irritating also, but just keep trying to provide some meat for the dogs to chew on even if they choke on it.

[dOHd]

Quote: Have you asked Johnson specifically which 9 parasites he was referring to?

John, have you asked him???

Or did you bother to read the next paragraph, where he lists them. In order even.

Problem is he is using the same data that was used to publish that information years ago in his first book. And it just aint so. How are you going to kill parasites on your fish at a .3% solution, when the wholesaler and distributor run .6% and they have parasites coming from them????

As for Eric's infalibility, there are several other things that he writes that are common knowledge to be just plain wrong. Some are personal judgement calls, others, I dont have a clue why he recomends the process. But he is still wrong, regardless of the reason for making the comment.

Salt has many different uses around a pond. But killing parasites to the average ponder is not one of them. And the more salt used in ponds on a regular basis, the less it will be of any benifit in the future.

d