Weird Winter: To Fast or Not to Fast

[MikeM]

KCOTA: I don't worry about aeromonas alley. I've never had an aeromonas-type infection on any koi owned more than 30 days. I do worry that my pond temps will not go below 60F. Last year was fairly typical with the lowest temp being around 58-59F. I don't think I've been below 56F since the 1989 freeze.

Henry: You, too? Glad to have the company.

Russell: I love it. From what I can tell, it never gets warm enough in the Bay area to end a fast. ...It is nifty to see how koikeepers adapt their techniques to their climates.

[koifishgirl]

Fowers are starting to bloom here. Crazy winter, but guess its sill cool enough that my koi wont eat.

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by sactownkoi Do we have to fast our fish because my water temp. is around 42 and they are very active swimming everywhere and seem very hungry and wanting to eat what should I do?

I do not think that you should keep koi fish at 42 it is just too cold . I heat the water and keep the females at 62 then give them a dormancy period ,the males are in a lean too greenhouse not heated but when it hits -10f the temperature drops to as low as 44 f. I then stop feeding and start again at 46 but it is Mazuri wheat germ pellets soaked in hot water with a tablespoon of frozen orange juice and made into a mush .
I do a 100% water change a week by leaving a tap open with the water comeing in at around 50 and leave a bottom drain and filter running . Every night I cover the pond with a swimming pool blanket . The fish go inside in Oct and go in mud pond in May .
You can gain 5 degrees in your water temperature by simply making a tent like cover over your pond .
Regards
Eugene

[carolyn swanson]

I have the utmost respect for people in the colder climates who are able to care so devotedly for their fish. The more I read the posts from the Northerners, the more I am grateful for my own situation. I don't think that I would be able or willing to do all the things necessary in a colder climate. Thanks. You guys are much admired and appreciated for your dedication.

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters Would you rather have cold and hungry fish or just cold fish? It is not really cold enough in the Bay Area to stop feeding altogether. I am feeding once a day, smaller amounts.

Me too. It just doesnt get cold enough in california ( some parts it does)

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM KCOTA: I don't worry about aeromonas alley. I've never had an aeromonas-type infection on any koi owned more than 30 days. I do worry that my pond temps will not go below 60F. Last year was fairly typical with the lowest temp being around 58-59F. I don't think I've been below 56F since the 1989 freeze. Henry: You, too? Glad to have the company. Russell: I love it. From what I can tell, it never gets warm enough in the Bay area to end a fast. ...It is nifty to see how koikeepers adapt their techniques to their climates.

How about your other club members fish? Have any of your club member's fish suffered from any illnesses or are they always healthy?

[dOHd]

What Mr. Hawly forgets, or maybe didn’t know, is that aeromonas alley refers to an actual warm up, not just temps in the alley.

The people that have problems with aeromonas alley are the ones whose pond drops into the 30’s and 40’s, and whose pond, both fish and bacteria go somewhat dormant. The fish’s immune system also is curtailed to a large degree during this time. Then when the water begins to warm up, the bacteria in a pond become active at a lower temp than the fish’s immune system allowing them to be very vulnerable to bacterial infections. In many cases also, it is accompanied by additional stress on fish because pond owners shutting down the pond’s filtration system over the winter, did not clean out organics in the pond in the fall (leaves and other debris) so water quality is not as high as it should be. Typically I also see people beginning to feed their fish at that time as well adding to the rapid decline of already poor water quality, and adding to the stress the fish has in dealing with bacterial problems. Not until the water temps rise enough for the fish’s immune system to begin firing on all cylinders is the threat of Aeromonas alley over.

In the south, where the water temps rarely go below 55-60 for short periods, by its own definition, you should never have a problem with Aeromonas outbreaks that are fairly common in the north.

d

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by dOHd What Mr. Hawly forgets, or maybe didn’t know, is that aeromonas alley refers to an actual warm up, not just temps in the alley. The people that have problems with aeromonas alley are the ones whose pond drops into the 30’s and 40’s, and whose pond, both fish and bacteria go somewhat dormant. The fish’s immune system also is curtailed to a large degree during this time. Then when the water begins to warm up, the bacteria in a pond become active at a lower temp than the fish’s immune system allowing them to be very vulnerable to bacterial infections. In many cases also, it is accompanied by additional stress on fish because pond owners shutting down the pond’s filtration system over the winter, did not clean out organics in the pond in the fall (leaves and other debris) so water quality is not as high as it should be. Typically I also see people beginning to feed their fish at that time as well adding to the rapid decline of already poor water quality, and adding to the stress the fish has in dealing with bacterial problems. Not until the water temps rise enough for the fish’s immune system to begin firing on all cylinders is the threat of Aeromonas alley over. In the south, where the water temps rarely go below 55-60 for short periods, by its own definition, you should never have a problem with Aeromonas outbreaks that are fairly common in the north. d

Very true; I did not know aeromonas alley didn't effect us south of the Mason Dixon line. I've read it was the region of water temp between 40-60 degrees (F) where the pathogens are more capable than the immune systems of the koi.

thanks for the correction.

[schildkoi]

"Seasons" is more than just water temps. The koi also react to other changes (beside watedr temps) as part of their seasonal changes. Changes in the intensity and duration of light also effects their adaptation to seasons. Although not in Florida, my water temps remain in the low to mid 60s throughout the winter months. I still fast the koi from Xmas through mid February. Yes, I'll cheat about once a week or 2 with a small amount of wheatgerm pellets.

Aeromonous alley isn't a concern for me either since the cfu counts are extremely low and the koi are never exposed to temperatures that stress their immune systems to begin with (low 50s or lower). In addition to providing a good environment with low bacteria counts to begin with, the environamnt is also parasite free (or so low as to not be an issue..I never find any during scrapes and exam). Those that may suffer from the alledged "aeromonous alley" are dealing with a number of underlying issues from poor pond design/maintenance, to subjecting their koi to adverse conditons (extremely low water temps) and not because of the 50 to 60F range itself. Just some food for thought.

Steve

[koicluboftheair]

Thanks for all this more up-to-date information about the true nature of the problem with aeromonas and it not being a issue in the South, and not being so much temperature related. The source I was going to adhere to for prepping a piece in relation to our warm Winter down South was “Cold Water Koi Keeping,” which is used in the AKCA Koi Health Advisor Continuing Education Program. http://www.akca.org/kht/coldwater.pdf
After the comments here I’ll go back and consider deleting some of the quotes from the excerpt below or maybe not use it at all as from what I read here it doesn’t effect us in the South anyhow. Oh, yea and thank you for the gentleman advising me against a sidebar regarding salt use, but as I don’t suspect PP is universally used in an average AKCA hobbyist club I might note contacting a KHA, vet,…er maybe just reading the instructions on PP and going for it?
Thanks again as I really humbly need everyone’s help and appreciate your tolerance of someone so unfamiliar with proper koi husbandry.



“But the real problem we face as koi keepers is how to reduce the effects of aeromonas and pseudomonas bacteria on our fish during those times when the immune system is still strengthening. Aeromonas (and I will lump pseudomonsas bacteria into this discussion as well) are the pathogenic bacteria that are the primary cause of ulcer disease, fin rot, and mouth rot. There is significant truth to the statement that aeromonas bacteria are ever-present in our ponds and they really only get to affect our fish when the fish become stressed or lack the ability to fight them off. Think of it this way: - cold germs are ever present in our surroundings and we become significantly more susceptible to catching a cold when our resistance is low, such as when we are cold or tired. Dr Richard Strange’s course on Bacteriology provides an excellent discussion on the cycle for bacterial infections.

Much is made of the control and even the elimination of aeromonas in our ponds. And while aeromonas are the primary cause of bacterial disease in our fish, their presence in the pond is essential. The primary role of aeromonas in the pond is to begin the breakdown of fish feces by eating away the slime coat on the feces; their favorite food. While such treatments as in-water antibiotics, KoiZyme, and potassium permanganate will reduce or even eliminate aeromonas on a short term basis, a healthy level of aeromonas is required in the pond to balance the ecology of the pond correctly.

Consider the chart below. The activity levels of aeromonas and the koi’s immune system are compared. Note that aeromonas becomes active at about 42 degrees (F) and remain active well above 90 degrees (F). Now notice the koi immune system active. The fish only begin to have the ability to fight off infection at about 45 degrees (F) or so and by that time, the aeromonas are off and running at greater than 60 percent lead!

But the real problem area we need to consider is that portion of time/temperature that we call “Aeromonas Alley,” where the net effect of the aeromonas activity is so great and the koi’s immune system so weak that the potential for real trouble exists. Aeromonas Alley is the pond water temperature range between 40 degrees (F) and 62 degrees (F) and this represents the time where our fish are in most danger from aeromonas infections. While there is significant debate as too whether Aeromonas Alley really exists, the facts surrounding the activity of parasites, bacteria, and the koi’s immune system are irrefutable.”