Weird Winter: To Fast or Not to Fast

[dOHd]

John

Once again you are taking lab results and trying to apply them to a pond.

It would be nice to think that once the water starts warming, it goes slowly upward. But in reality, it bounces, up and down covering as much as 10 degrees in a week. So while that information is interesting and gives some insight as to the benchmarks, in a pond further north, pretty much worthless.

As has been mentioned by Steve, the majority of problems with the bacterial infections has to do with the pond itself, not so much the fish or the temp range of 50+. its when you have your fish at 30-50 for a time period that their immune system powers down. Add to the stress of that factor, a dirty pond, a poorly designed pond or filtration, and yes, as the water finally gets warmer, you can/will have problems. I deal with it every year here, where people are too lazy to clean out ponds in the fall, and have very bad if any filtration. Sick fish almost guaranteeded in the spring.

Salt, in this situation is of no help what so ever IMHE. Instead it is like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

d

[schildkoi]

KCOTA,
I am confused, you are preparing a piece for

Post #9

Quote: Don't you believe we have an increased threat from Aeromonas Alley down South with our warm winter as the pathogens are kicking between 40-60 degrees where our temps may dip while the koi resistance is similarly weakened? The food if not digested throughly results in increased susceptibility, etc. Aeromonas Alley can become an interstate highway instead.

and, from post #18

Quote: Very true; I did not know aeromonas alley didn't effect us south of the Mason Dixon line. I've read it was the region of water temp between 40-60 degrees (F) where the pathogens are more capable than the immune systems of the koi.

In another thread, post #17
You say that your interest here is due to preparing an article for a SE club.
Salt . . .

Quote: Oh, I apologize if my question is antagonistic. I'm preparing a piece for an AKCA member club newsletter in the S.E. about the increased threat of Aeromonas Alley with our warm winter and a sidebar about salt as a recommended treatment via the KHA program and Advanced Koi Care; For Veterinarians and Professional Koi Keepers. A variation will also be distributed in the KCOTA newsletter and I'd hate to send out dated info. Thank you very much.

Quote: But the real problem area we need to consider is that portion of time/temperature that we call “Aeromonas Alley,” where the net effect of the aeromonas activity is so great and the koi’s immune system so weak that the potential for real trouble exists. Aeromonas Alley is the pond water temperature range between 40 degrees (F) and 62 degrees (F) and this represents the time where our fish are in most danger from aeromonas infections. While there is significant debate as too whether Aeromonas Alley really exists, the facts surrounding the activity of parasites, bacteria, and the koi’s immune system are irrefutable.”

In your above post you quote REC and his piece for the KHA program.
If the data (chart especially) is read and time taken to understand, you can see easily that it relates to a temperature range AFTER a colder period of water temperatures (below the upper 40s as REC says when the immunity and nitrobacter start to kick in.

What isn't addressed is the bacteria counts present to begin with. A point I tried to make earlier when talking about cfu counts. Simply put, if a koi is subjected to lower water temps (below 50F) it is wise to maintain the lowest possible cfu counts for pathogenetic bacteria. This once again goes back to pond design and maintenance.

Reading literature such as this makes it even more important to put such into proper perspective to begin with and not to draw assumptions from such based upon lack of existing knowledge. This is one classic example of how some "myths" get started or minimally get misinterpreted.

Steve

[koicluboftheair]

Yea, I'm the editor for my home club newsletter and I'm using the KHA continuing ed piece as reference material for a story provided our general membership as info relative to our warm winter condition. The audience member's ponds range in size from several hundred gallons to tens of thousands of gallons. With such variations in size their water temps vary greatly where one day to the next ambient air temp can fluctuate 50 degrees. And since the average hobbyist can't measure effectively their cfus, bacterial counts I'm not sure what value there is in leaning to heavily on that info other than to say if their are existing problems that they are responsible for those counts could be excessive? Unfortunately, there is some conflict between the text and what is expressed here in numerous posts and threads, but that must be because I just don't get it as opposed to anyone other than myself being susceptible to drawing faulty conclusions.

Again, thank you all for trying to clear up something for me that I probably can't get because I'm just not smart enough. You guys are great.

[KoiCop]

There you go again, John, quoting a good piece of work out of context. When you stated “Unfortunately, there is some conflict between the text and what is expressed here in numerous posts and threads” you were wrong-a-mundo on all counts. There is no conflict – just a lack of perspective on your part.

When I talked to Spike Cover last year he told me he recruited Richard E. Carlson (REC) for the Koi Health Advisor Continuing Education Program specifically because of his expertise in this area. REC’s paper is entitled “Cold Water Koi Keeping Coming out of Winter” and is the one you referenced at:

http://www.akca.org/kht/coldwater.pdf

What you didn’t provide in your excerpt above were the first three paragraphs of REC’S paper – namely, the purpose of the class (and I quote):

The purpose of this section is to introduce the KHA to the effects of water temperature on the ecology of the pond and physiology of the fish. It is important to understand the dynamics of the pond as the seasons change and as the conditions in and around the pond change. For the purposes of this section, we will focus on the approaching spring season.

This course will teach the KHA how cold water and changing water temperatures affect the health of koi and also the ecology of the pond as they emerge from winter.

As spring approaches in those climes that endure winter, we need to consider what is happening in our ponds as the water warms and the fish become more active.

John, you live in Florida. He’s not talking to you or to members of your local club (except in passing). He’s talking to folks whose ponds and whose koi experience WINTER:

1. Very low water temperatures; maybe even ice.
2. Filtration shut down; danger of frozen pipes.
3. Fish in stasis; stressed for months on end.
4. Leaves and debris accumulating on the pond bottom.
5. Decreasing water quality.
6. Climbing organic and bacterial loads.
7. Unchecked parasite load.
8. Infrequent water changes; maybe even none!

Koi keepers in Florida should never experience conditions 1 – 3. And if they experience conditions 4 – 8 then it’s their own damn fault.

Mike and Daniel and Steve were correct. You and yours in Florida shouldn’t have to worry about Aeromonas Alley as long as proper ponding techniques are maintained. Of course if one doesn’t have a properly designed, filtered and maintained pond: Say Hello to Aeromonas Alley, even if ya live in Dixieland.

[schildkoi]

Now you have the info to put things into perspective. I'd suggest that you have members take temperature readings and see where they fit into the information that you have collected. As for CFU counts, there is another article for you, collecting water samples for testing and the importance of such in evalutaing one's system.

Steve

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop There you go again, John, quoting a good piece of work out of context. When you stated “Unfortunately, there is some conflict between the text and what is expressed here in numerous posts and threads” you were wrong-a-mundo on all counts. There is no conflict – just a lack of perspective on your part. When I talked to Spike Cover last year he told me he recruited Richard E. Carlson (REC) for the Koi Health Advisor Continuing Education Program specifically because of his expertise in this area. REC’s paper is entitled “Cold Water Koi Keeping Coming out of Winter” and is the one you referenced at: http://www.akca.org/kht/coldwater.pdf What you didn’t provide in your excerpt above were the first three paragraphs of REC’S paper – namely, the purpose of the class (and I quote): The purpose of this section is to introduce the KHA to the effects of water temperature on the ecology of the pond and physiology of the fish. It is important to understand the dynamics of the pond as the seasons change and as the conditions in and around the pond change. For the purposes of this section, we will focus on the approaching spring season. This course will teach the KHA how cold water and changing water temperatures affect the health of koi and also the ecology of the pond as they emerge from winter. As spring approaches in those climes that endure winter, we need to consider what is happening in our ponds as the water warms and the fish become more active. John, you live in Florida. He’s not talking to you or to members of your local club (except in passing). He’s talking to folks whose ponds and whose koi experience WINTER: 1. Very low water temperatures; maybe even ice. 2. Filtration shut down; danger of frozen pipes. 3. Fish in stasis; stressed for months on end. 4. Leaves and debris accumulating on the pond bottom. 5. Decreasing water quality. 6. Climbing organic and bacterial loads. 7. Unchecked parasite load. 8. Infrequent water changes; maybe even none! Koi keepers in Florida should never experience conditions 1 – 3. And if they experience conditions 4 – 8 then it’s their own damn fault. Mike and Daniel and Steve were correct. You and yours in Florida shouldn’t have to worry about Aeromonas Alley as long as proper ponding techniques are maintained. Of course if one doesn’t have a properly designed, filtered and maintained pond: Say Hello to Aeromonas Alley, even if ya live in Dixieland.

Wow! We "should never" experience "low water temperatures, filtration shutdown, and fish stressed for months" eh? Oh, thank you Don! You the man! We never have that situation even when air temperature is freezing I reckon. And regardless of what the paper says about aeromonas existing in beneficial form in most ponds eating turds and stuff they aren't a problem in Dixieland. Thanks for clearing that up. So it only gets "cold" up North. I'll use that as my mantra. High today in J-ville is 68F and low 36F, but I reckon cold is like real-cold not just around freezing. Dang this science stuff is so difficult. I'll keep trying to understand it, but I might just have to quote the smart folks, you included of course.

[lildude]

Quote: Originally Posted by koicluboftheair Wow! We "should never" experience "low water temperatures, filtration shutdown, and fish stressed for months" eh? Oh, thank you Don! You the man! We never have that situation even when air temperature is freezing I reckon. And regardless of what the paper says about aeromonas existing in beneficial form in most ponds eating turds and stuff they aren't a problem in Dixieland. Thanks for clearing that up. So it only gets "cold" up North. I'll use that as my mantra. High today in J-ville is 68F and low 36F, but I reckon cold is like real-cold not just around freezing. Dang this science stuff is so difficult. I'll keep trying to understand it, but I might just have to quote the smart folks, you included of course.

I think things in florida could get very cold. In LA things freeze. Plus you are getting the atlantic breeze, Hurricanes and so much more there.

[l113892]

MikeM

I have been told that you can see some marvelous sheen on your quality fish if you stop feeding. Yes, the lower water temperatures/Winter trigger improvements for those that get to experience those changes but you should also consider how much you can improve a fish for a show by withholding food 2 weeks or 3 weeks. I struggle withholding food for more than a week prior to a show but I am told if I would, my koi would be in even better condition to compete and that's when the water temperatures are high. I know my fish need a fast; my water temperature is 10 degrees higher this year but they are going to get a fast. Fish that are harvested in Japan and shipped to the US go on very long fasts. I don't see why everyone struggles, even in the warmer climates, with provided that downtime. I notice when I stop feeding, the fish stop showing an interest in me when I approach the pond.

[koicluboftheair]

KoiCop,
You schooled me good and challenged this lil old dimwit John boy and of course I’m not very intelligent, always distort stuff, blow stuff out of proportion, I’m a troll, etc, etc, etc, but I’ve been thinking about what you’ve said here:

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop 6. Since that’s the only mention of disease &/or parasites in Norm’s Salinity section, what do you mean by “the increased threat of Aeromonas Alley with our warm winter and a sidebar about salt as a recommended treatment via the KHA program.” What does a warm winter have to do with aeromonas? What does salt have to do with aeromonas? How is salt a recommended treatment for aeromonas via the KHA Program? Can you even explain this gobbledygook? (Can’t wait to hear this one, folks.) And if you do want to try, see point #7 below. 7. As for you writing an article on Aeromonas Alley for a local koi club? In Florida, maybe? Sidebar about salt? That’s too funny. This is 2007, dude. You still wearing bell bottom trousers and disco boots, Johnnie? What’s that, you want some help? Why don’t you start your own damn thread (instead of trying to hijack this one)? I’m sure LOTS of your ‘friends’ will help you out. Hah, hah, hah!

Oh yea, and this one! You remember Carlson don’t you?

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop There you go again, John, quoting a good piece of work out of context. When you stated “Unfortunately, there is some conflict between the text and what is expressed here in numerous posts and threads” you were wrong-a-mundo on all counts. There is no conflict – just a lack of perspective on your part. When I talked to Spike Cover last year he told me he recruited Richard E. Carlson (REC) for the Koi Health Advisor Continuing Education Program specifically because of his expertise in this area. REC’s paper is entitled “Cold Water Koi Keeping Coming out of Winter” and is the one you referenced at: http://www.akca.org/kht/coldwater.pdf

Well geez can you believe it? Carlson actually has his own website that the AKCA Cold Water Continuing Ed class material is synthesized from and here is a sample (pay attention to the part where he recommends salt to deal with aeromonis,…can you believe it?)

Parasites, Bacteria, and Cold Water.

The next sets of organisms we need to discuss in the pond’s ecology are micro- and macro-organisms, more notably known as the parasites and the bacteria. Here we will differentiate between the nitrifying bacteria discussed above and the pathogenic bacteria that cause disease in our fish. Both of these bacteria types are aerobic bacteria which simply means that they need oxygen to survive. Most parasites are basically warm-water creatures and as the water temperatures dip into the very low 50’s and high 40’s, the common micro- and macro-parasites begin to die off in great numbers. However, it is always a good idea to do a .3% (3000 ppm) salt or, if you are an advanced ponder - a potassium permanganate treatment, to your pond at about 60 degrees in an effort to reduce or kill off the lingering parasite colonies. More about medicinal pond treatments is provided later.
The lone exception to parasitic cold-water intolerance is costia. Costia, which is formally named ichthyobodo necator and not to be confused with common "ich", is one of the smallest ectoparasites (lives on the outside) and is especially active in water down to about 38 degrees F. This is what makes it so dangerous to our fish during cold-water times. As the fish’s immune system and metabolic processes are reduced due to decreasing temperatures, costia parasites are still active and have the potential to cause significant damage through normal parasite attacks (cold water ulcers) and increased stress on the fish. The good news is that costia is easily managed through salt and/or potassium permanganate treatments.

But the real problem area we need to consider is that portion of time/temperature that we call Aeromonas Alley, where the net effect of the aeromonas activity is so great and the koi’s immune system so weak that the potential for real trouble exists. Aeromonas Alley is the pond water temperature range between 40 degrees (F) and 62 degrees (F) and this represents the time where our fish are in most danger from aeromonas infections.

To counteract the potential for disaster, especially while temperatures are in Aeromonas Alley, ponders can take a number of steps to reduce aeromonas loads, including the following:

1. Reduce the amount of organics in the pond with a thorough cleaning of the pond bottom and filters. Remember that bacteria thrive in high organic environments.
2. If possible, treat the pond with therapeutic potassium permanganate treatments. PP removes the organic load through oxidation and also kills off significant, if not all, bacteria in the pond. A therapeutic dose of PP is 2PPM for 4-8 hours)
3. Add salt to your pond at a dose rate of no less than .2 % (that is two pounds per 100 gallons) and keep it there for at least two weeks. Then reduce the salt level to about .08 to .1% through water changes and salt at that level for the remainder of the winter. This will reduce the parasite load as well provide much needed chloride levels into the water.
4. Reduce feeding of the fish. The primary food source of aeromonas bacteria is fish feces. Actually, the slime coat on the feces. Reduced feeding causes less feces and so less food source for the aeromonas.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/recarlso


Could you give me some more evaluation of how terrible I am personally, how stupid I am, how I can't get it right, etc, etc, along with discredit this guy you talked to Spike about? Or am I misinterpreting what he is actually saying about salt and aeromonas(just like me isn't)?

[Campcheryl]

Well John I totally understand the exerpt you copied and pasted. As others, I have to go along with Daniel, Mike, Steve, Koicop, & JR it’s about proper ponding techniques. A dirty pond going into winter will yeild a dirty pond coming out of winter and therefore a tired immune system on the koi which in no doubt lead to problems in late spring and early summer. A clean pond in the fall can yeild a dirty pond in the coming spring if not maintained during the winter. Even in your copy and paste , REC talks about maintaining the water. That is why you really don’t see the experienced hobbyist having these kind of problems with their koi. They maintain the water and have a properly designed system. Now tell us why again you never received your KHA certification. Oh never mind, we already know the truth. Experience will help you learn all this some day. Hands on experience is a great teacher. Just my humble opinion.

Quote: Originally Posted by koicluboftheair KoiCop, You schooled me good and challenged this lil old dimwit John boy and of course I’m not very intelligent, always distort stuff, blow stuff out of proportion, I’m a troll, etc, etc, etc, but I’ve been thinking about what you’ve said here: Oh yea, and this one! You remember Carlson don’t you? Well geez can you believe it? Carlson actually has his own website that the AKCA Cold Water Continuing Ed class material is synthesized from and here is a sample (pay attention to the part where he recommends salt to deal with aeromonis,…can you believe it?) Parasites, Bacteria, and Cold Water. The next sets of organisms we need to discuss in the pond’s ecology are micro- and macro-organisms, more notably known as the parasites and the bacteria. Here we will differentiate between the nitrifying bacteria discussed above and the pathogenic bacteria that cause disease in our fish. Both of these bacteria types are aerobic bacteria which simply means that they need oxygen to survive. Most parasites are basically warm-water creatures and as the water temperatures dip into the very low 50’s and high 40’s, the common micro- and macro-parasites begin to die off in great numbers. However, it is always a good idea to do a .3% (3000 ppm) salt or, if you are an advanced ponder - a potassium permanganate treatment, to your pond at about 60 degrees in an effort to reduce or kill off the lingering parasite colonies. More about medicinal pond treatments is provided later. The lone exception to parasitic cold-water intolerance is costia. Costia, which is formally named ichthyobodo necator and not to be confused with common "ich", is one of the smallest ectoparasites (lives on the outside) and is especially active in water down to about 38 degrees F. This is what makes it so dangerous to our fish during cold-water times. As the fish’s immune system and metabolic processes are reduced due to decreasing temperatures, costia parasites are still active and have the potential to cause significant damage through normal parasite attacks (cold water ulcers) and increased stress on the fish. The good news is that costia is easily managed through salt and/or potassium permanganate treatments. But the real problem area we need to consider is that portion of time/temperature that we call Aeromonas Alley, where the net effect of the aeromonas activity is so great and the koi’s immune system so weak that the potential for real trouble exists. Aeromonas Alley is the pond water temperature range between 40 degrees (F) and 62 degrees (F) and this represents the time where our fish are in most danger from aeromonas infections. To counteract the potential for disaster, especially while temperatures are in Aeromonas Alley, ponders can take a number of steps to reduce aeromonas loads, including the following: 1. Reduce the amount of organics in the pond with a thorough cleaning of the pond bottom and filters. Remember that bacteria thrive in high organic environments. 2. If possible, treat the pond with therapeutic potassium permanganate treatments. PP removes the organic load through oxidation and also kills off significant, if not all, bacteria in the pond. A therapeutic dose of PP is 2PPM for 4-8 hours) 3. Add salt to your pond at a dose rate of no less than .2 % (that is two pounds per 100 gallons) and keep it there for at least two weeks. Then reduce the salt level to about .08 to .1% through water changes and salt at that level for the remainder of the winter. This will reduce the parasite load as well provide much needed chloride levels into the water. 4. Reduce feeding of the fish. The primary food source of aeromonas bacteria is fish feces. Actually, the slime coat on the feces. Reduced feeding causes less feces and so less food source for the aeromonas. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/recarlso Could you give me some more evaluation of how terrible I am personally, how stupid I am, how I can't get it right, etc, etc, along with discredit this guy you talked to Spike about? Or am I misinterpreting what he is actually saying about salt and aeromonas(just like me isn't)?