Weird Winter: To Fast or Not to Fast

[KoiCop]

I thank you, and I'm sure the rest of the board does, too.

PS: That title, as given, was taken directly from line 2 of your paper, as posted on the AKCA, KHA website.

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi Another mis-percetion KCOTA. I never said you were stupid and didn't mean to infer such. The bolded area above doesn't sound like good pond design for koi if it is not providing a stable environment....including water temperatures. I would question the suitablity of a Koi pond for kopi with swings in water temperatures of more than +/- 3-5 degrees F in a 24 hour period). That sounds like another topic you could/should discuss with your members. It still does not go to "aeromonous alley. BTW, I didn't go to any great lengths either. I commonly use the US Weather service informaton for different areas when dealinh with koi related questions. The link was provided so that you (and others) may also reference their data. Steve

Now that would make an interesting calculation to include in Ballou's section of the KHA program. Or maybe it is noting proper pond design should not allow for water temperature changes of more than +/1 3-5 degrees F in a 24 hour period. I don't know that I agree with that as being a published standard as I consider it insulting to many in the hobby with small ponds, but I can see your point. As with even you with frequent moves I doubt you go out and dig another 25,000 pond every few years, but yea bigger is better. Point well taken.

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by REC I am not sure if I helping or hurting this thread at this point, so this will be my last post on this subject.. and I just want to answer Don's two questions above.. The first... Don said: The first issue is that John thinks your paper entitled “Cold Water Koi Keeping Coming out of Winter" is a cautionary tale to all koi keepers, including those in Florida, and that Floridians need to rigorously apply all of your Coming out of Winter protocols to avoid Aeromonas Alley. REC: Correct.... my paper (and it was not named as titled above.. something simpler like Cold Water Effects or Winter Effects.. I forget) is a tutorial on what happens to the pond and fish going into winter, during winter and coming out of winter. Is it cautionary?? Interesting choice of words and I guess it could be cautionary in nature. The assumption was that the reader could extract the information they need given the information provided. True, most Floridians may not need to worry about cold water conditions but the learnin' is good nonetheless. Next, Don posted: Since salt at appropriate ponding levels does not combat aeromonas (a bacteria), it is my position that your salt protocol is to reduce parasites; that reducing parasites is just one part of proper pond hygiene; and that proper pond hygiene is the true weapon against aeromonas – not salt. REC: Salt does not battle aeromonas in our ponds as I stated. So, this position is correct. One final comment.. salt (like all chems and meds) is just a tool that the pond owner can use for a number purposes. We have covered them all just about here. And like any tool, some people are better with it than others, some have confidence that the tool will do the job it is being used for and others, well they haven't even read the instructions yet. Salt won't work for everyone in every situation but it will work for some in most situations. And this why we teach it to the KHAs so that they can teach it to their clubs and those people who they try to help. Armed with the info of what this tool or any tool can do if used properly, the pond owner can then decide if this is the right tool for them. It is the information to pond owner that is vital... after all each of us as koi keepers is ultimately responsible for the health and well being of our fish. No one else. If we don't learn it, the fish suffer. I think Jim Riley really says it best... the koi are always the innocent ones. Thanks, Jim.. wise words. REC

Thanks for the clarification REC. While pond water temperature in Miami may not be in the 40-60 F range here in North Florida we do experience them. If the temperature portion of the range of aeromonas alley is water temperatures of 40-60 degrees then at least in North and Central Florida we are effected. I won't tell everyone to run out and buy all the salt off the shelves or load up on PP, but merely reference your piece and let them run the numbers.
Thanks again for your efforts here.

[schildkoi]

You still aren't "getting it." RECs paper and the term aeromonous alley refer to a temperature range for Koi subjected to colder water for an extended period of time, thus suppressing the immune system, and then come back up into that range. Based on your target audience (N. FLA and perhaps South Georgia), this term does NOT apply. Look once again at the US Weather service data. Until you can grasp this concept, you will be doing your club a diservice by taking those concepts and applying such to your geographical region. I think everyone else has come to grips with those concepts.

BTW, if a pond is built to Burt's specifications and his concepts, the water temps will stay within a 3-5 degree F range for a 24 hour period. Somethings really are a "given".

Steve

[KoiCop]

you're not only correct -- you've pinpointed the crux of the matter.

It's not a particular water temperature, or range of temperatures, that defines or invokes AA -- it's the severity and the duration of the cold water.

Water temperatures in the 30's & 40's for months on end can cause a koi to exhaust the reserves it took into winter, to eventually become weakened and stressed.

This, in turn, makes the koi more vulnerable to low temps, bad water, organic loading, parasites, bacterial infection, ad nauseam.

[KoiCop]

For any of you cold water ponders that might appreciate an informative and enjoyable read on the truth about A A, check out this thread by JR (and other knowledgeable posters) over on NI:

http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag...168211617.html

Very timely. Very good. Very civil.

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop For any of you cold water ponders that might appreciate an informative and enjoyable read on the truth about A A, check out this thread by JR (and other knowledgeable posters) over on NI: http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag...168211617.html Very timely. Very good. Very civil.

I will second that finally one more who understands cold water . I appreciate the link .
Regards
Eugene