Beni Strength ?

[HEADACHE6]

I have heard that you can sometime tell the strength of a Gosanke's Beni if it has Hi in the joint of the Pectoral fin(s). I purchased a Kohaku from Neisi Koi Farm this past fall that has Hi in the Dorsal Fin . Is this another way of predicting the strength of a koi's Beni ?

Here is a photo of the Koi .

[dcny]

From the picture, the beni looks very nice. You could always do the bending trick to see if it's consistent thru the scale.

-Dan

[HEADACHE6]

I feel like this is a pretty nice Kohaku . Matt allowed it to stay until next fall to grow out ($$$) , while other koi we bought were not afforded this option .

[MikeM]

Very nice Kohaku. Note the glistening in the Hi plate, the even color, and thickness of the Hi. This is a sharp, focused photo... notice the individual scales in the red? ... exactly.

I have two knocks on this fish. The pattern is too simple; and it is not in my pond.

As to your question... I've not read any comments/observations that Hi trailing into the dorsal indicates longevity for the Hi overall. I have read that Hi at the base of the pectoral indicates pigment strength, but I am not aware of any actual basis for the idea. ...no scientific studies to my knowledge. If the idea is based on generational knowledge of koi breeders, then I'd accept it as having some validity, but not necessarily quite the absolute "truth" often asserted. Vogata has posted photos of several Dainichi Kohaku in a couple of threads he began. There is pretty much a consensus that the weakest Hi in the group is the Hi of the only one with Hi in a pectoral. ...So much for the rule of thumb (or evaluating Hi quality by photo... take your choice).

JR has commented on the so-called "white spreading gene". The idea behind it is that a gene (or combination of genes) causes white to appear and spread out over a koi, creating a pattern. Compared to the older Higoi/Benigoi types, the white-spreading gene gives us Kohaku. If the fading of Kohaku to Shiromuji is the result of an "over active" white-spreading gene, then maybe Hi in the fins indicates a less active gene that's less likely to lead to Shiromuji??? Maybe. Maybe not.

I think it better to focus on the quality of the Beni on the body, and not look for Hi in the fins. Studying Hi to understand what you see ... to be able to realize what is thick, deep pigment... that is where we should all focus our attention. There are no shortcuts.

Besides, it is best for all fins to be free of Hi.

[mitten]

Just think how much this fish would have cost if it was a boring three step pattern.

[HEADACHE6]

I understand that the pattern is not the most interesting that we have all seen . The first photo was the one that showed the Dorsal fin the best , for the discussion .

Here is a photo of the whole pattern .

[dcny]

Quote: Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 I understand that the pattern is not the most interesting that we have all seen . The first photo was the one that showed the Dorsal fin the best , for the discussion . Here is a photo of the whole pattern .

Ah, a much better picture of the entire fish. I remember your earlier post of the two fish now.

Right now, the pattern seems to overwhelm the fish but I think this fish will grow into it's pattern well. The wrap of the pattern will give the fish a powerful appearance as it grows. You'll have enough shiroji in the pattern for interest. Everything will fit together nicely as a big fish. Your job is get it there.

[koiczar]

DCNY and Mike are absolutely correct. The beni on this fish is very thick and homogenous (even throughout). The sheen and luster are very good also. I'm assuming this is a tosai left to grow out for another year. Very good selection. This fish, as Dan says, needs to grow A LOT for it to fit the pattern. But that's kinda the idea. I fish that fits it's pattern before it grows over 16-20" is simply "cute". Power is what we'd like to have (if we have the space or a mudpond to grow it out in). The larger this fish gets, the better it will be. I think the beni will hold.

As far as hi in the dorsal fin, this fish doesn't have much. It is not and indication of beni quality. As the fish grow, this dorsal beni should recede back into the pattern. As far as pectoral beni, if it's there at all it needs to be tightly fit into the brace joint. As the fish grows and the body widens, the beni ends up disappearing from view. I have been told by a few very famous kohaku breeders that the beni in pecs is a sign of high quality beni. Wonder if they just wanted to sell a second rate fish or it's really the truth. I'll ask a few again at the AJS this weekend and see what they say.

Nice fish. Hope it grows out well this next season. Would love to see this pic compared to next years at this time. Be sure to post the results so we can all learn.

Mike

[dick benbow]

I too have heard the beni in the fins/dorsal comment over the years and do feel that it indicates some strong beni. As Mike M suggests, that's something we don't want to see on a show fish, but it is all relative to a lot of other things the judges have to consider. There are national shows won with koi that are not the perfect dream pattern.

I think Mat offered to put it out in the mudpond because the koi has the potential to develop into a high class koi and nothing helps to pull the color down toward the body like maximum growth experienced in a grow pond. I would be willing to quess that the beni on that koi will pull downward close to
1/3 to 1/2 by harvest next fall....

as has been suggested this simple deep pattern will come into it's own as the koi gets up into the upper 20 inches in length. If Mat offers to put it back into the growth pond the following year, I would certainly be prepared to take advantage of the offer.

If i could point out one thing I've learned in the 30 some years of studying our hobby...don't get hung up on tiny faults in pattern that become less and less as the koi grows and the quality increases. Trust the knowledge and recommendation of the breeder. Because they better than anyone else know what's likely to turn out

[PapaBear]

I couldn't begin to proffer an opinion on hi in the fins being an indicator of anything... but I sure do like the beni on this one no matter what Nice deep Crimson that looks strong and thick throughout. It is another example of why I'm beginning to have a greater appreciation of large "lazy" patterns on younger fish. When this one grows into its pattern it will be a real beauty queen.