pond temp is 48.2* . they want food...

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by moikoi DRAW ??? LOL!!! if this was a boxing match... the referee would of stop the fight in the second round.

Hey, I am an optomist. The cup is half full.LOL

[JasPR]

( just think of me as the paramedic keeping this thread going!) LOLs

We might as well finish the fourth sup-topic associated with the subject of winter and feeding just to round the Big Picture out.
I’ve always found it interesting that while a newbie tells me how they melt the thick layer of ice over their ponds with a pot of boiling hot water, so that they can add food and baking soda " for the fishes’ health" , that at that moment they never mention the system itself????
The assumption that koi are just more sleepy in winter but just as capable of all body functions also assumes that bacteria will somehow still manage the water. Or worse, that the filter is dead but it is winter and somehow the ammonia will take case of itself?? Indeed the newbie can be emboldened by the fact that koi don’t seem to show a bad reaction to ammonia while they are in stasis or semi-stasis ( just remember- " oil me, oil me"!)
Well fortunately much of what is fed is not digested and simply passes thru the koi as undigested material. This organic material, which is normally destine for mineralization , is instead just held by the system until water warms to a level that bacteria are in greater numbers to break it down completely. Some is digested by the koi however , and inorganic ammonia can rise just as high in winter as summer. The bacteria itself is not dead. It is also hanging on within the polymer matrix and is only slightly capable of using ammonia for the formation of energy.
What this really means is the water quality must, by biological definition, deteriorate. And no amount of bottled microbe additive will help as those bacteria are subject to the same laws of nature as the endemic bacteria are.
Any koi keeper who feeds higher protein pellets will see this when they feed too long into the fall. When temps drop from the low 70s into the mid-to-low 60s you can actually watch your pond water become murky. Same food, same amounts fed at the same time of the day to the same fish. But at that point the bacteria begin to experience some diminished function themselves. This goes hand in hand with the koi’s lose of peak digestion and assimilation rate. This observation brings a whole new appreciation to the statement that koi are not cold water fish but rather temperate water fish that have ideal metabolic performance at temperatures between 68 F and 76 F. And further, that a filter performance is reduced at almost the same rate as the koi’s digestive tract. Not surprising since the koi’s gut contains millions of bacteria that also aid in digestion and predigestion of food. So the filters also are ruled by temperature, seasons ( light plays a role in competitive exclusion) and dietary mix ( different bacteria needs for partly digested proteins, ammino acid and lipid chains, than for inorganic ammonia produced from fish’s gills and decomposition). This is just one reason why algae diet , albeit sparse in amount and poorly digested, is most easy on the environment in the trace amounts passing thru the koi.
So when we debate whether a fish can keep digesting down to 44 F or 48 F or 55 F, just remember that this is only half the question and the other half of the question can, in the end, provide a different answer. It does your koi no good to consume a meal they really can’t use, process or need, and in the process- trash the water quality because the biofilter is off line. JR

[JasPR]

Finally... the caveat

JR's last is what I've been waiting around for. Different specifics for different ponds. Since we all have varying environmental conditions, some weather related, some self-made, we all have to use a little common sense for our own circumstances. The sub-50 deg fast rule is valuable and healthy in general, but chiseling things in granite for every pond is something that can rarely be done without a little fine tuning from one to the next.
Another thing that drives our actions revolves around purpose. Nancy's home pond is not operated for the same purpose as Russ's store ponds. If Russ treated his tosai sales tanks the same way Nancy treats her adult Koi at home (or vice-versa) they would produce different results, none of which would be desirable. Logic and reason must rule the day if we are to produce the results we are looking for.
__________________ Larry
Good Morning Larry,
At the risk of over playing my role as the Simon Cowell of the koi world, I wanted to just nitpick a bit regarding your summary.
Although there are caveats to consider and generally I enoyed your post, my last post is not so ‘kumbaya’ that I would have the tail wag the dog!!
Koi are temperate water creatures that were raised outside and that we have live outside in our various temperate regions ( or sub tropical). So the danger in being too casual in the details is that we risk the danger of being enablers to the beginner community. ALL beginners naturally try and have their koi live in their particular circumstances with very little consideration as to the needs of their new pets. And as is human nature, their backyard pond is deemed perfect for any fish that manages to live a year or so. This is a tribute to the koi’s hardiness and not an acknowledgment of the new keeper’s natural intuitive abilities!
I posted a world map on NI that shows the ‘home’ territories of the original common carp subspecies and races that went into creating our nishikigoi. Remembering that nishikigoi is only a few hundred years old and their ancestors are some 140,000 years old, it is reasonable to accept that the proto type is a temperate water creature and that Pet Smart has had insufficient time to change them into tropical fish!
So as we move carp and koi around the world, they survive due to many God-given talents. But they still are what they are and they still are slaves to the environment. Therefore mimicking or paying homage to this fact is a wise thing to do for the long term results and health we are looking for. An ideal table fish is 2-3 pound and a couple of years old when butchered. If you can get them to size quicker then you have greater profit. In fishing contests, a world class grotesque mirror carp can weigh in the double digits- but the egg mass ruins the ‘dream of the Japanese breeder’ in terms of body line. The adult ‘hot house’ GC is magnificent, managed to a T to be an amazing specimen on show day- but often it won’t live past age 6.
Therefore emulating these examples or misunderstanding what one is seeing when observing these examples/results is to miss what it is we do and are trying to achieve- healthy, long lived fish that meet their genetic potential over a normal growth period and through the natural stages of life ( fry, juvenile, sub adult and mature adult).

[KoiCop]

like an experienced lawyer's closing argument in court, you brought the topic full circle and put it in perspective, too. Thank you.

[MikeM]

JR, it is always a pleasure to read your posts on 4 season koikeeping. The past few days the weather has cooled here (while the rest of the country is in a deep freeze!), but the winter has otherwise been much warmer than normal. It is now 6 weeks since I began fasting my fish. I will now start feeding with half portions of wheatgerm pellets and gradually increase to full portions. Although their water has been above 60F at all times and usually above 63F, the loss of weight is perceptible only to me. My wife does not see it and I don't think anyone would say they had been underfed if not told they were fasted. My observation has been that the koi slow down with the reduction in food. They are grazing on algae, but the active swimming behaviors are much reduced... except when weekly water changes etc make them think there might be food on the way. So, they seem to use less calories when their intake is limited. Perhaps light angles and such is also involved, but I think it is primarily the fasting that slows them down.

Thanks for the lessons.

[moikoi]

what if the pond temp only stays above 55* for 7 months out of the yr.would that be enough feeding time w/o heating the pond?

[JasPR]

Aaaah, now your talking British koi keeping!!! LOls

Seriously, you are describing koi keeping in areas that produce another challenge- no real growing season- or at least a very short one.

Obviously you can't expect a koi to go 7 months in cool water below ideal digestion temperatures but above stasis temperatures. They will survive on algae and detritus from the pond walls and floor but they will not grow very well.
If you research fishing websites in Northern Europe you will find that carp there are small in size and have a very short breeding season. As you would expect, they survive but do not flourish when compared to carp in rivers and lakes in warm locations.

From a practical stand point, if you can't heat, at least tent the pond with greenhouse plastic and try and gain some heat from passive solar effects.
You might even consider moving a loop or the entire filter inside like I do and you will get an extra ten degrees that way. Put your air pumps in a warm basement so that you are pumping warm air into the water column ( insulate the air line).

In all these scenarios the theme is to provide a long 'summer' and a short, mild 'winter'. How you do it is part of the challenge of the hobby. It is also the reason I wish I lived in the Carolinas! JR

[Seefdro Tvneik]

I want to let everyone know I find this post as GREAT reading!!!!! I lurk quietly in this forum and rarely do I come across such a well-thought, educated, and somewhat easy to digest readings (well, maybe thats not true). VERY NICE PLATO, SOCRATES interaction here......Although me and mitten rank among the "COLD FREAKS" of koi keeping here. AS koi keeping goes I think I really push the limits of koi surivival (Michigan winters).......HIP Mitten uses "greenhouse concecpt" for his ponds... The "greenhouse effect" will be up next winter for my pond. In the mean time, the winter weather was looking real good for us a few weeks ago...BUT the "EL NINO`" has left and the jet stream DROPPED!!!!! We are once again crossing our fingers for a nice healthy transistion in the spring.......EXCEPT MITTEN HAS THE WINTER PROBLEM KIND OF UNDER CONTROL...... Do you believe small but frequent addtion of bacteria in the spring would be benificial for Michigan pond? After a week of spring bacteria introduction, the U.V. goes on in my pond. Once the pond has nice clarity the U.V. is turned off......Then another addition of so called SPRING bacteria..... At this point I am more reactive rather than proactive with water changes bacteria etc......My pond is mature, and has been running for three seansons....It's my third pond and has provided me with good water.....I have a bottom drain, vortex, pressure filter, homemade bakki shower and a decent sized waterfall which stores media........SO how much bacteria do you think I should add here in MI to start a nice colony in the spring? I know this thread has been really hammered but the Michigan (ZONE 5) experience is unique....... IS the bacteria sold to general public UNIQUE via the distributer's biologist? It seems you use a canadian product....Is this CANADIAN bacteria unique? Are all bacteria UNIQUE based on who you get it from? M-lift is what I use....and I use the spring bacteria because they say I should....Am I being a un-educated bacteria consumer....Is there a ferrari of the bacteria world which outperforms it's competitors via the seasons?

[PapaBear]

I've been pondering your question a while and since none of our "true" bio-experts have spoken up yet I guess I'll toss in my 2 cents worth.
A lot of companies peddle bottled bacteria that seem to be the functional equivalent of snake oil. Others are honest brokers with a proven track record. You mention that you are using Microbe Lift (same as Russ). At a minimum you have Russ's anecdotal evidence of its efficacy.
As to your question about source location, I think it may have merit. Bacteria cultures from cool northern regions (like Canada) should be well adapted to cool water conditions naturally. Like any microbe, bacteria evolve/mutate in response to specific environmental conditions like temperature, elevation, food source, ph, kh, gh... You can be relatively certain that the bacteria in your filter at the end of the warm season will be slightly different than they were when you first seeded the filter. They will slowly mutate as they reproduce to match your specific conditions, with only the strong surviving (natural selection) to reproduce each successive generation.
I don't know if that really answers your question, but it is my best shot at it.

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear I've been pondering your question a while and since none of our "true" bio-experts have spoken up yet I guess I'll toss in my 2 cents worth. A lot of companies peddle bottled bacteria that seem to be the functional equivalent of snake oil. Others are honest brokers with a proven track record. You mention that you are using Microbe Lift (same as Russ). At a minimum you have Russ's anecdotal evidence of its efficacy. As to your question about source location, I think it may have merit. Bacteria cultures from cool northern regions (like Canada) should be well adapted to cool water conditions naturally. Like any microbe, bacteria evolve/mutate in response to specific environmental conditions like temperature, elevation, food source, ph, kh, gh... You can be relatively certain that the bacteria in your filter at the end of the warm season will be slightly different than they were when you first seeded the filter. They will slowly mutate as they reproduce to match your specific conditions, with only the strong surviving (natural selection) to reproduce each successive generation. I don't know if that really answers your question, but it is my best shot at it.

Larry, Russ uses a bacteria called "Bacta-Pur Klear", I honestly dont think it is the same thing as Microbe Lift. Perhaps Russ can tell us if they are differnet products. I do know people who use the microbe lift, but have not seen any data, to prove it actually works. I believe that Russ, has been using his product for 7 years, and has had great results. I think this would give his product some merit, as Russ is a dealer, and has alot of fish go through his facility.