pond temp is 48.2* . they want food...

[PapaBear]

Your point is a good one that brings up another question. Time in the mud over winter is an important part of Dianichi's fasting/finishing regime. How does the beni get fed under the ice? Is it the bugs, worms, spirulina, etc... they root in the mud bottom for?

[JasPR]

Exactly, And it IS fed year round! Its just that it is not always fed with 'food' eaten THAT day.
Stasis is an interesting thing. And although it was forced upon the wild carp as a way to survive, it has many benefits related to health and this robust health is never appreciated any more than in nishikigoi skin and color.
Brady, as you know, the evolved individual nishikigoi has remarkable skin. It is not like a wild carp. And it has a 'three dimensional depth' in color. In very healthy specimens the beni plates and sumi marks tend to 'float' and give a three dimensional effect. This is a real but a very easily disrupted effect.
As Brady hinted, the beni color represents a unique ability koi have over their other carp cousins- they can 'eat' color and store 'color' THIS is part fo what we see when we look at Brady's koi. His gosanke are storing color in cells within their skin layers. Not only on the surface like wild carp but in depth- in the epidermis, the dermis and the deep dermis. If you could image traveling down an escalator in a mall, maybe one with a skyline ceiling. And along side of the escalator was a sculpture of modern art in red rising to the glass ceiling- that would be what the beni would be like in the billowy skin of a great kohaku. But back to reality- those cells must be fed and the koi is remarkable at getting the building blocks of color from its diet.
The sumi, on the other hand, is a collection of small cells that gather/collect around fatty cells. These also can collect in a three dimensional sculpture. They are not so dependent on diet other than the glow of health from great nutrition. But the fatty cells they gather to, and on, contract or expand depending on season, diet and hydration factors. This has the effect of making the cells appear as a cluster or appear fragmented- we call the un-gathered or fragmented cells ‘ deep’ or unfinished. In truth, they are simply not formed in density yet- either laterally or vertically.
So in come seasons the cells are growing, filling and expanding ( in 3 dimensions). This is based on current diet. In another season, winter, they are contracting and solidifying as the surrounding tissue ( mostly muscle) feeds them. This is also a time when ‘stain’ is metabolized and used as ‘food’. This is ONE of several reasons why skin gets ‘whiter’ in winter. In truth it is getting more translucent. And in worse cases, it is beginning to be drained of ‘over storage’.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Exactly, And it IS fed year round! Its just that it is not always fed with 'food' eaten THAT day. ...In another season, winter, they are contracting and solidifying as the surrounding tissue ( mostly muscle) feeds them. This is also a time when ‘stain’ is metabolized and used as ‘food’. This is ONE of several reasons why skin gets ‘whiter’ in winter. In truth it is getting more translucent. And in worse cases, it is beginning to be drained of ‘over storage’.

To make sure I'm reading this correctly, in winter months yellowish or greyish shiroji will release excess color cells (stain) as the fat stores they are connected to are consumed to feed either beni or sumi in the plates?

[KoiCop]

Very good teaching thread.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Gee Russ, why not just shout "fire"!! In a crowded theater! LOls This is one of those chats that brings out the long knives. And I think it is a case of EVERYONE being right depending on the specifics of a given statement. 1) algae is VERY rich in nutrition---- protein, more important- vitamins E and B. 2) IF the fish can get to it, which is not easy due to the though waxy cell material surrounding plants (cellulose) 3) pellet manufactures tend to heat treat these materials to ‘release and predigest’ such things - this can lead to a mis assumption that carp can’t digest this material 4) koi as scavengers and omnivores have excellent abilities to ferment using cellulose attacking gut bacteria, digest thru enzyme action specific to cellulose. 5) food manufacturers act as a kind of ‘anti- educator’ when discussing grow out strategies for food fish as a general concept. 6) Age of koi. Not only are koi four season creatures that really act, respond and grow as different animals in each of the four seasons, they need to be further divided by 2!! Meaning a young or juvenile koi form is a ‘different creature’ than an adult koi in many ways- the gut length, the diet, the digestive abilities etc. A young koi is a carnivore moving towards an omnivore mix. An adult koi is a true omnivore. 7) finally, this depends on what type of algae we are talking about and more specifically, is it live, dead, unicellular, thick cellulose filament, green, brown, bacteria-type etc. So koi , as efficient and gifted omnivores, can and do get a huge benefit from algae grazing. After all, this is one reason we feed spirulina. We also use yeast which has the same issues. Fungi as well. And your koi eat and gain benefit from ingested bacteria believe or not! But here is the thing. The ‘camps’ are divided into two ‘armed camps’ by the underlying mistake of seeing a carp as a stable mammalian creature. Some envision the koi as a domestic mammal and others as a wild mammal. It , of course is neither. So in high summer, Koi eat lots of algae and digest a good percentage of what goes in. In winter, koi will still graze , but A) there is less plant growth B) their ability to ferment and produce specific digestive enzymes is diminished- so the value becomes anecdotal when compared to SUMMER feeding results. BUT conversely in winter, when animal protein capture, ingestion, digestion, assimilation factors make this food type metabolically impractical, Algae is a more valuable source of nutrition. It may be inefficient and limited in calorie count but still metabolically accessible for its carbohydrate/ roughage content at least. When we talk about diet in the ‘limbo temperatures’ ( below 60-ish and above 48-ish F) we have to modify our views somewhat regarding all dimensions of feeding technique/routine and nutrition/ digestion. What might be a true statement at 38 F and at 72 F many not be true in limbo temperatures. I have found it helpful to see the range of 32F - 46 F as ‘black’ and the range of 62F - 82 F as ‘white’ and the range of 48-58 F as ‘gray’. So depending on the LENGTH of time of the gray area, you can lean towards either black or white and do no harm to a koi in short intervals. And do put some common sense thinking into the DIRECTION of the temperature's trend. Is the temperature rising through 58 F in spring OR is the temperature passing thru the 58 F mark on its way doen in late winter? Big difference! In one, you have a fish needing protein again after a winter stasis and in the other you have a fish plump with storage and 'good to go'. But in general terms, less is more and the system the fish is IN is just as effected by the decision you make as the koi is. When in doubt, don’t feed. When ‘personally suffering’ sets in calm yourself by watching them graze on algae during sunny intervals in winter ! JR

Hi JR,

I want you to realize that I would never just spout something without a little bit of research.

I was at a ZNA NorCal meeting at Champion Koi last month and the subject of winter feeding and nutrition through algae scavenging was brought up. There was a member, also a KHA adviser there, who had attended a seminar, I think sponsored by the University of Georgia (I could be wrong on the sponsor), that did a study on cold weather feeding and the nutritional value of algae. They had determined that the grazing of Koi on algae really did nothing for the Koi except give them something to do. The study showed that the feces of the Koi contained a very high percentage of what they had consumed.
The study basically went against what everyone tends to believe. This is where I got the statement that alagae has no nutritional value to Koi. I to this day still believe that statement.

The KHA adviser is Sanjiv Kapoor.

Russell

[l113892]

Just my anedotal observations- I don't think koi derive much from algae on the walls of my pond- at least not in Winter. I find very little algae waste in my settlement chambers, even though the koi are very active with the water temperature between 52-56. I don't see them grazing that much unless food goes into the pond.

[aquitori]

For me summer feeding and conditioning will show in the fall/winter slow down. California has 4 seasons, but it doesnt get cold enough for people not to feed their fish. As hobbyist we have to monitor the quality with each season and with winter the condition should be at "Prime".

Will the fish suffer if not fed?
No.

People say the fish get weak and get more prone to disease going into spring , because of not feeding?
No, reason for disease is water quality. You feed when the bacteria is at it's slowest time your goin to get problems.

What suffers the most is the inactive biofilter you have to handle the waste. This year I cut back the feeding 1 every 2 days or so and I am enjoying the results of the summer feeding with my fish glowing white, beni thick and consolidated. Fall/Winter is a time for the fish to rest and get better.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori For me summer feeding and conditioning will show in the fall/winter slow down. California has 4 seasons, but it doesnt get cold enough for people not to feed their fish. As hobbyist we have to monitor the quality with each season and with winter the condition should be at "Prime". Will the fish suffer if not fed? No. People say the fish get weak and get more prone to disease going into spring , because of not feeding? No, reason for disease is water quality. You feed when the bacteria is at it's slowest time your goin to get problems. What suffers the most is the inactive biofilter you have to handle the waste. This year I cut back the feeding 1 every 2 days or so and I am enjoying the results of the summer feeding with my fish glowing white, beni thick and consolidated. Fall/Winter is a time for the fish to rest and get better.

Actually very cold, disease free water is hard on Koi and can weaken them. This does not mean that they will come down with something, but the weakest ones can even in very good water. You can never rid your pond of all the "bad" bacteria. There is always some level there even in exceptional ponds.

As far as inactive biofilters go, all you have to do is add probiotics regularly and you will still have an active filter even in winter. Beneficial bacteria are active until they freeze, they just slow down in cold water.

[JasPR]

what?? You add bacteria so you have active bacteria? What are your resident bacteria doing while the new bacteria is added?

YOUR bacteria, especially your aged biofilter bacteria, have evolved in YOUR system. THEY are much better able to cope with your conditions as they have lived there for possibly years. Why would bottled bacteria need to become the filter in winter? JR

[JasPR]

To make sure I'm reading this correctly, in winter months yellowish or greyish shiroji will release excess color cells (stain) as the fat stores they are connected to are consumed to feed either beni or sumi in the plates? Larry


Larry, sorry I was trying to say that shiroji is stained with byproducts of diet. Also hormones and other things that tend to get drained in winter. The tan male shiro will get white again in winter. And that is due to hormones. Pink skin due to excess color food will also drain in winter back to a whiter tone.
These areas have a pretty good blood supply as evidenced by the blood shot skin you can see when a koi is stressed and hormones are causing BP problems and rapid heart beat.

Here is a VERY crude drawing I just made of the complexity of a good koi's skin. Hope it makes some sense, just dashed it off to give you an idea. I can draw it better and to a better scale ( no pun intended) if you have specific comments or questions. JR