pond temp is 48.2* . they want food...

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar Toshio Sakai has been a breeder for over 35 years after having been raised under his father's watchful breeder's eye. I think his knowledge and integrity as a business man places him far above what you're suggesting. Maybe that's why there are not many like him!? Mike

Toshio Sakai as well as many others have my deepest respect. He has set the foundation for what is Sanke today. As well as Dainichi set the foundation to what Kohaku and Showa is today. But without Grandad Gosuke, Matsunosuke would not be around.

[KoiCop]

posted by Dan (DCNY) on KoiShack:
Matsunosuke Seminar Day 1, Toshio Sakai
http://koishack.com/forums/index.php...pic=8465&st=20

Mr. Sakai believes in the 4 season fish idea and said that koi should not be fed in the winter. When they are, the food provides little to no value for growth. It is only use for egg production. Also when koi are fed in the winter they will grow less in the summer when food actually goes to producing muscle mass instead of just eggs. A koi that is fed in the winter may look a tad bigger than one not fed but when it comes out of the mud the following year the exact opposite would be true. The koi that wasn't fed will be much larger and have a better conformation. He also said that koi that are not fed in the winter will have fewer illness in the spring than those that are fed. He even said that some koi that are fed in the winter may die if handled improperly.

Is Dan correct? Is this what Sakai-san said?

'Cause if true, this is a very clear cut, straight forward and unambiguous position statement.

[dinh]

>> Is Dan correct?

Yes. Dan is correct.

>> Is this what Sakai-san said?

Yes, that is what master Sakai said.

Thanks,
--Dinh

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop posted by Dan (DCNY) on KoiShack: Matsunosuke Seminar Day 1, Toshio Sakai http://koishack.com/forums/index.php...pic=8465&st=20 Mr. Sakai believes in the 4 season fish idea and said that koi should not be fed in the winter. When they are, the food provides little to no value for growth. It is only use for egg production. Also when koi are fed in the winter they will grow less in the summer when food actually goes to producing muscle mass instead of just eggs. A koi that is fed in the winter may look a tad bigger than one not fed but when it comes out of the mud the following year the exact opposite would be true. The koi that wasn't fed will be much larger and have a better conformation. He also said that koi that are not fed in the winter will have fewer illness in the spring than those that are fed. He even said that some koi that are fed in the winter may die if handled improperly. Is Dan correct? Is this what Sakai-san said? 'Cause if true, this is a very clear cut, straight forward and unambiguous position statement.

[KoiCop]

thank you, my friend.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop posted by Dan (DCNY) on KoiShack: Matsunosuke Seminar Day 1, Toshio Sakai http://koishack.com/forums/index.php...pic=8465&st=20 Mr. Sakai believes in the 4 season fish idea and said that koi should not be fed in the winter. When they are, the food provides little to no value for growth. It is only use for egg production. Also when koi are fed in the winter they will grow less in the summer when food actually goes to producing muscle mass instead of just eggs. A koi that is fed in the winter may look a tad bigger than one not fed but when it comes out of the mud the following year the exact opposite would be true. The koi that wasn't fed will be much larger and have a better conformation. He also said that koi that are not fed in the winter will have fewer illness in the spring than those that are fed. He even said that some koi that are fed in the winter may die if handled improperly. Is Dan correct? Is this what Sakai-san said? 'Cause if true, this is a very clear cut, straight forward and unambiguous position statement.

Actually, something is being left out. I do not remember him saying do not feed in the winter at all. He was more temperature specific than that. He said if the Koi are moving and swimming that they are using energy and they may need a little food. He said if you feed you must feed very little. Now if you are in a very cold region and your Koi go dormant then you must not feed at all.

His four season approach is as explained above though. Further clarification would be that the Koi should not be fed during the winter (you should base it on your temperatures), fed some, but not too much in the spring because this food would go to egg production and then during the summer growing season, July to October, they must be fed as much as they want. If you feed this way then you will get very good growth and have healthier Koi.

[dcny]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop posted by Dan (DCNY) on KoiShack: Matsunosuke Seminar Day 1, Toshio Sakai http://koishack.com/forums/index.php...pic=8465&st=20 Mr. Sakai believes in the 4 season fish idea and said that koi should not be fed in the winter. When they are, the food provides little to no value for growth. It is only use for egg production. Also when koi are fed in the winter they will grow less in the summer when food actually goes to producing muscle mass instead of just eggs. A koi that is fed in the winter may look a tad bigger than one not fed but when it comes out of the mud the following year the exact opposite would be true. The koi that wasn't fed will be much larger and have a better conformation. He also said that koi that are not fed in the winter will have fewer illness in the spring than those that are fed. He even said that some koi that are fed in the winter may die if handled improperly. Is Dan correct? Is this what Sakai-san said? 'Cause if true, this is a very clear cut, straight forward and unambiguous position statement.

That's what I got from what Mr. Sakai said. Others may have interpreted it differently and that's perfectly fine. After that part of the seminar, I knew the topic would re-surface. I purposely didn't post it here because I didn't want to create any drama or get a very good, open discussion thread moved outside. I hope that this discussion will remain good, open, and friendly.

-Dan

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by dcny That's what I got from what Mr. Sakai said. Others may have interpreted it differently and that's perfectly fine. After that part of the seminar, I knew the topic would re-surface. I purposely didn't post it here because I didn't want to create any drama or get a very good, open discussion thread moved outside. I hope that this discussion will remain good, open, and friendly. -Dan

Well Dan, to each is his own. I have studied how some hobbyist feed their fish and how breeders feed their fish. No matter what you feed, when you feed, it all doesnt matter if your water quality is good and with that everyone still has different results.

[koiczar]

Dan and Russ are both correct. The reason I posted what I did was to show that there are differing postures on proper feeding regimens (breeders, dealers and hobbyists).

When I stated that I personally saw Sakai feeding his fish in January, remember, his ponds are in Isawa, a hot spring resort area and he uses this geothermally heated water to help keep his temperatures in the mid 60s. Also, these ponds are semi-open systems unlike the average hobbyist's pond. As Russ stated, Sakai's statement also was temperature and season dependant. We're also talking about mud ponds during the summer. Has anyone given consideration to size of fish as well? Would you necessarily stop feeding tosai if your water temps are above 50F - they sure aren't going to develop eggs at that age, right?!? We all have different requirements than the breeders do and for differing purposes, that's all I'm saying.

Something else that Sakai said during the lecture was that he wouldn't recommend feeding really high protein foods to our koi in concrete ponds. He mentioned to Russ and Erwin and I in the fall when we visited him that "most" of what he feeds when the fish are in the mud ponds is silk worm. Maybe that is why he mentioned about the protein level we should be using versus what he does. He didn't say what that percentage should be however either last fall or during the seminar.

Mike

[koiczar]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori Well Dan, to each is his own. I have studied how some hobbyist feed their fish and how breeders feed their fish. No matter what you feed, when you feed, it all doesnt matter if your water quality is good and with that everyone still has different results.

Antonio

You are absolutely correct. Sakai also emphasized the water quality aspect last time we were there. He also mentioned about proper aeration. He doesn't think we use enough of it during the summer months. He told us that, basically, you shouldn't be able to see your koi except through the bubbles!

Mike