Soliciting opinions on KHV screening

[Jeff Speck]

I'm leaning towards thinking it sounds like beaurocratic fuss, when reputation already separates the conscientious dealers from the others? Maybe the energy should continue to be aimed at (1) research, and (2) hobbyist quarantine, and I know you've got a lot of energy going into all of it, Spike. Just recently it seems like more dealers are getting on the bandwagon of blood sampling. I hope this certification and its possible expense to dealers (?) would not stop them short of doing the serology.

[RRB2]

Education is great and we all need it, but my point is that by issuing a certification to a retailer, the implication is that those koi are free of KHV, but as we can see it’s not necessarily true and never can be totally true.

The entire koi supply chain is open to problems slipping in and they end up in the retailer’s tanks. It would be great if every one at every step of the way did their job correctly every time, but it’s not going to happen.

I’m also not comfortable with the concept that we the customer (end user) should be paying to educate or certify the companies selling us a product. Isn’t it their job to assure us their product is healthy?

The best that we can do is the same things that we are already doing.

1. Support the dealers who try their best to do things correctly.
2. Be willing to pay a bit extra for the better care.
3. Be willing to learn and keep up on the latest KHV heath news.
4. Support the organizations like AKCA and Spike as they gather information, but be upfront with them about what you think.
5. Quarantine, quarantine, quarantine.

Ron

[Spike Cover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff Speck I'm leaning towards thinking it sounds like beaurocratic fuss, when reputation already separates the conscientious dealers from the others? Maybe the energy should continue to be aimed at (1) research, and (2) hobbyist quarantine, and I know you've got a lot of energy going into all of it, Spike. Just recently it seems like more dealers are getting on the bandwagon of blood sampling. I hope this certification and its possible expense to dealers (?) would not stop them short of doing the serology.

Jeff,

I'm of the opinion that very few dealers are currently doing all of what we will likely suggest. It's not rocket science but it will have everyone that's certified operating with the same minimum requirements.

Let's consider "DIY" option. How many folks buy from a dealer? And of those, how many practice home quarantine? Not many I think we can agree. So what's easier, to get the fish screened at the dealer or in everyone's back yard? Hopefully you get this picture.

We are not abandoning research in favor of a BHP program. It is additonal to our other efforts,

This program will not prohibit any additional testing. And, serology testing, while it may give us a warm fuzzy, is essentially only good for the fish that was sampled.

Best,
Spike

[Spike Cover]

Quote: Originally Posted by RRB2 Education is great and we all need it, but my point is that by issuing a certification to a retailer, the implication is that those koi are free of KHV, but as we can see it’s not necessarily true and never can be totally true. The entire koi supply chain is open to problems slipping in and they end up in the retailer’s tanks. It would be great if every one at every step of the way did their job correctly every time, but it’s not going to happen. I’m also not comfortable with the concept that we the customer (end user) should be paying to educate or certify the companies selling us a product. Isn’t it their job to assure us their product is healthy? The best that we can do is the same things that we are already doing. 1. Support the dealers who try their best to do things correctly. 2. Be willing to pay a bit extra for the better care. 3. Be willing to learn and keep up on the latest KHV heath news. 4. Support the organizations like AKCA and Spike as they gather information, but be upfront with them about what you think. 5. Quarantine, quarantine, quarantine. Ron

I agree that dealers should deliver a healthy animal w/o us leading the way or financing their education. We now have many years of experience and believe it's appropriate to ask, "How's that plan working for us?"

So we can do what you suggest or we can be more proactive and help get what we want and need. I agree that it doesn't get much better than having someone else pay to have your problems solved. And I wish the dealers and/or vets would have taken the lead in this.

Lots of dealers have "self educated" and are making a genuine attempt to do the right things. Let's face it. Which of them has time to read a bunch of technical papers filled with techno-jargon, become educated in epidemiology, veterinary medicine, statistics and the other things that are required to really "do it right?" I'm retired and do this all day (and night) almost every day, and I'm no guru.

So we can lament the fact that our vendors should offer clean fish but often don't or we can take the old bull by the horns and help ourselves.

But you're right. I did ask for your opinion and I'll mark you down as voting for "It's not worth doing."

Best,
Spike

[RRB2]

I don’t mean to sound so negative. You and AKCA are doing a wonderful job of keeping us up to date on the progress being made in on the KHV front, but you can’t change the world or human nature.

I don’t think any responsible koi keeper can trust the supply chain and no matter how hard you try, it’s beyond you & AKCA.

All you can really do is gather & disseminate as accurate of information as is possible to both us and the supply chain. After that it’s beyond everyone’s control.

We need to be responsible hobbyists, retailers & supplier’s and use the knowledge we gather to limit the damage & spread of KHV as best that we can.

But in the end, it all comes down to whether or not we are willing to stand beside our pond with this new koi and feel confident that it will not cause problems.

We can only feel that confidence if we do the quarantining and blood work on our own koi.

Ron

[Spike Cover]

We don't have to be perfect to be better.

Spike

[Jeff Speck]

Quote: Originally Posted by Spike Cover 1. This will not be an AKCA program. Project KHV has financed some market research and plans to finance the writing, development and initial marketing of the program. But it will not be an AKCA nor a Project KHV program. 2. The plan is to give (free of any charge) the program to any vet who agrees to only certify dealers who meet the minimum requirement of the program. 3. The certification will be done by vets acting as independent, competent third parties. This certiciaction will have no ties to AKCA. It is strictly between the vet and the dealer. AKCA cannot and will not underwrite the program for liability. 4. Vets will establish any criteria (above the minimums required by the program) to make sure their dealers are complying with the Program, e.g., initial inspection, regular reporting, unannounced inspections. 5. Vets will have the authority, and at their sole discretion, to pull the certification of one of their clients.

Will vets want to undertake all this? Or would it be a money-maker for them? And will dealers want to pay vet fees to get this established?

Quote: Originally Posted by Spike Cover Let's consider "DIY" option. How many folks buy from a dealer? And of those, how many practice home quarantine? Not many I think we can agree. So what's easier, to get the fish screened at the dealer or in everyone's back yard? Hopefully you get this picture.

Even better at the breeder level. Wish we could get you higher up in the food chain--getting the most out of APHIS or something.

Quote: Originally Posted by Spike Cover How do you view the “quarantine and observe” option for a BHP program:

Getting back to your question--
With harvest shipments being in fall and early spring, the heat cycle of the quarantine is the challenge and the crucial part to enforce, especially for California dealers paying high rates on electricity.

But it's sounding good, Spike.

-Jeff

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff Speck Will vets want to undertake all this? Or would it be a money-maker for them? And will dealers want to pay vet fees to get this established? We at PSKoi have been asked this by the program and are more than willing to pay. Even better at the breeder level. Wish we could get you higher up in the food chain--getting the most out of APHIS or something. Aphis does nothing but create a paper trail that can point a finger after something has happened. In Japan there is an established testing program that is quite comprehensive. It costs the breeders about $2,500.00 a year to participate in it. They are tested twice a year for SVC and KHV. All breeders that are positive are reported and the Koi are destroyed. We don't buy from any breeders that are not part of this testing procedure. Getting back to your question-- With harvest shipments being in fall and early spring, the heat cycle of the quarantine is the challenge and the crucial part to enforce, especially for California dealers paying high rates on electricity. PSKoi uses both gas and electric heat to heat test our Koi. The high rates cost us a lot less than lost business. It is a no brainer. But it's sounding good, Spike. -Jeff

I think having a program as Spike has outlined can at least bring awarness and education to hobbiest and is a good idea.

[Spike Cover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff Speck Will vets want to undertake all this? Or would it be a money-maker for them? And will dealers want to pay vet fees to get this established?f

We surveyed 21 fish-friendly vets and got 100% buy-in to the program. Most of the 53 dealers surveyed said they wanted in and were willing to pay. Whether or not a price point can be reach that makes it good for everyone has yet to be determined.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff Speck Even better at the breeder level. Wish we could get you higher up in the food chain--getting the most out of APHIS or something.f

I/we advocate for the hobbyists and the last folks to have the fish before we get it are the dealers. We can't solve the world's problems, we're having a tough go solving our own. That said, I hope that the same vets who write our BHP program will consider writing one for the breeders.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff Speck Getting back to your question-- With harvest shipments being in fall and early spring, the heat cycle of the quarantine is the challenge and the crucial part to enforce, especially for California dealers paying high rates on electricity.

I can heat a 500 gallon show tank system that's insulated up to the permissibe temp with a couple of 250 watt aquarium heaters in fairly short order, three works even better.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff Speck But it's sounding good, Spike. -Jeff

Thanks. We're working hard to help ourselves.

Best,
Spike

[Seefdro Tvneik]

Is there a succesfull/failed model that has already been through this testing trail before? OR is this unique koi/vet experiment with koi? Just curious....