Advantages and Disadvantages of Jumbo Tosai?

[aquitori]

Advantages and Disadvantages of Jumbo Tosai?

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori Advantages and Disadvantages of Jumbo Tosai?

The advantage of Jumbo Tosai is that you can see the quality the Koi will have sooner as it is larger and more developed. The disadvantage comes when Jumbo Tosai are sold that are not from Jumbo parents, and you usually can not find them in the 4 for $100 section.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters The advantage of Jumbo Tosai is that you can see the quality the Koi will have sooner as it is larger and more developed. The disadvantage comes when Jumbo Tosai are sold that are not from Jumbo parents, and you usually can not find them in the 4 for $100 section.

Then again I have seen 4 for $100 tosai end up being better than those labelled "Jumbo" Tosai....


The advantage of Jumbo Tosai is that you can see the quality the Koi will have sooner as it is larger and more developed.

Developed in what way? Quality? Wouldnt the Quality be the same compared to lets say a tosai 7" to a 11" tosai?

The disadvantage comes when Jumbo Tosai are sold that are not from Jumbo parents.

What is the difference if the Tosai are from jumbo oyagoi 90cm+ or oyagoi in the 80cm size?

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori Then again I have seen 4 for $100 tosai end up being better than those labelled "Jumbo" Tosai.... The advantage of Jumbo Tosai is that you can see the quality the Koi will have sooner as it is larger and more developed. Developed in what way? Quality? Wouldnt the Quality be the same compared to lets say a tosai 7" to a 11" tosai? The disadvantage comes when Jumbo Tosai are sold that are not from Jumbo parents. What is the difference if the Tosai are from jumbo oyagoi 90cm+ or oyagoi in the 80cm size?

You are absolutely right, I have seen jumbo tosai that aren't any good. They are used as a device, sometimes, just to make more money.

A 7" tosai is a jumbo tosai if it comes from jumbo parents. Jumbo Tosai should really only be considered Jumbo if they have the ability to grow to a very large size. If they come from jumbo parents they are more likely to achieve that growth and should be considered jumbo tosai no matter what size they start out. If a dealer is selling jumbo tosai and the parents are only 24" then they are not really jumbo tosai. The term "Jumbo" does not refer to the size of the tosai, it refers to the parents it comes from. I do not consider 80cm Jumbo.

Quality in any size tosai is undeniable and recognizable.

[Christian @Berlin]

..keepin oyagoi small
makes them more handy for the breeder - as Maurice just posted "My sansai are bigger than the mother (76cm)

And if they go over 100cm they´ll be 25cm longer--- funny enough it´s more than the actual size

[mitten]

Man, I am half lost with this one so let me slash at the bushes a little. (just like fly fishin)

Jumbo tosai could result from the freakish combination of jumbo parent genetics with ideal conditions and all the luckiest timing and weather.

Jumbo tosai could be tobi seperated from the spawn to grow elsewhere.

Jumbo tosai could be the result of heavy early culling to maintain lowest stocking densities and greatest growth.

Jumbo tosai could result from growing on in the fully heated greenhouse ponds producing a two season growth fish in the first year.

Jumbo tosai could be small nisai.

Advantages? Uh, they're bigger.

Disadvantages, they're XXpensive. Because of the different ways to get a jumbo tosai, different outcomes should be expected in the pond at home. And if they are tategoi they are still in Japan. (or England )

Is this a question about whether jumbo tosai grow to be bigger adults? I think that may be what would make them most valuable, the certainty that it's gonna be big. But I don't think tosai size can be that certain an indicator and, saying that, I am now out of my league.

[JasPR]

I would have preferred the title of this thread to be:

the Illusion or reality of Jumbo tosai

As Mickey has said, 'Jumbo' is a descriptive term but it in no way tells you what or how the fish before you got that way. It can be genetics? Yes, but there is no way you will be buying that fish as a tosai. It is too valuable as a tategoi and will fetch much bigger dollars in a few years. So that fish is a rarity and certainly not offered to hobbyists. The exception would be if the fish has a poor pattern and/or is likely male- in fact, if that is the case, it is sold readily.
And you can certainly get a tobie.

Most jumbo tosai however are simple fish that have been forced in growth through husbandy technique and will hold 'size' against seasonally raised fish for about three or four years. At which point, both will be of the same size.
Ironically, in a average to below average backyard setting, most fish will only grow slightly to modestly. In that environment, the jumbo tosai will always be 'jumbo' to the others as no one has an advantage and the pace of growth will not allow the others to 'catch up'. But then again that jumbo may only get to be an adult 27 inches when it was 18 inches at age 18 months. Generally a very poor growth rate considering where it was at age one.

Ask yourself this- we have seen VERY large tosai gosanke coming into the country for some 6 years now. So the leading edge of this classification is now seven years old. Where are these 40 inch gosanke?? Where are these 36 inch gosanke? Not to be found? But still the dream and the illusion that 20 inch tosai translate into giant adults sells hundreds and hundreds of these fish each spring.

Big koi are produced with some reliability by good genetics and a super environment.
But an 'impression' of great genetics can be created with certain husbandry practices- heat, massive protein feeding, high oxygen and eternal summer. At least for a while.
Jumbo tosai are 'things to dream on' no doubt. And very tempting in that regard. But you are often much better served by looking for a three year old tategoi instead.

JR

[PapaBear]

The term "Jumbo" is so abused in the marketplace as a pricing gimmick that false marketing may be the biggest disadvantage.
I like Russ's definition of a "true" jumbo, but I wonder how many Koi sold as Jumbo Tosai would even come close to meeting that standard. Probably not many. A multitude of Tobies from ordinary Oyagoi mingled with early spawn, heavily fed all year greenhouse babies, and smallish Nissai probably make up the biggest part of the market. Another great example of "know your source" and "buyer beware".
Another question for me would be where do you draw the line between Jumbo and non-jumbo? How big is a Jumbo at 6 mo. post spawn vs. 11 mo? In warm climates like Taiwan or S.E. Asia with neverending growout seasons do you have the same size standard at 1 year as you would in Niigata or even Hiroshima???
P.S. Thanks JR... looks like we were typing at the same time

[MikeM]

From what I can discern, the "jumbo tosai" from the better breeders are their better tosai that got the best over-winter care, but did not make the cut for a second mudpond summer. So, for those breeders, the "jumbo tosai" gives the consumer some higher level of quality than compared to that breeder's other tosai. The advantage is that it is a tosai the breeder thought highly about at one point. If that breeder's nisai sell for less than the "jumbo tosai" (which seems to be the case oftentimes), buy the nisai!

...Then there are the ones that seem to be random selections given warm water over the winter and priced above nisai...avoid buying anything from such a source.

But, it seems to me that if you come across a Sakai or Torazo jumbo tosai in May that is priced well below nisai pricing, and you otherwise like what you see, it may well be the best quality available for your pocketbook. Unfortunately, it also seems to me that these get marked up to nisai and higher levels when the breeder clearly did not think it was worth space in the mudpond.

On the other hand, last year Quality Koi/Nisei Koi Farm released some of its 'jumbo tosai' (10" or so... not the 14+" some hothouse "jumbos" are). They were placed for sale with the idea that the fish would stay in their mudponds for the summer. These were selected from among their better tosai to be raised to nisai before being offered. A different twist on the "jumbo" term.

It's the old refrain: Buy the fish, not the breeder... and not the label.

[keokoi]

My concern on Jumbo Tosai is the excelerated growth... The Body is growing but what is going on inside such internally.

I am probably the only one that could make Jumbo tosai back to jumbo fry

Joe