Growth Hormone Relative To Stunting In Crowded Conditions

[KoiCCAPW]

While it may be interesting, I don't think one should directly apply information and practices of the aquacultureist who is raising fish for food, to the raising of a fish purely for artistic beauty.

Food fish are raised quickly, very crowded, and kept by the breeder for the shortest possiable time. He is not concerned about the long term health of the fish, just the quickest time to table, as he should be.

Koi on the other hand, are really pets. Ideally you should be able to pass them onto your children, like parrots.
The fact that few make it that far, doesn't mean we should not strive for that level of health.
Perhaps GH and other means of speeding up growth are not good for the long term health of koi, or any other pet intended to live a long time.

Even many GC that are grown to far above normal sizes in a shorter period of time, only by the best food, and lots of it at the right time,(not GH) often do not live as long as one grown more slowly. There are exceptions to this, of course, but it happens.

While there may be some breeders who use GH, I don't belive any reputable breeder would do so.
Koi are an artisic expresion of the breeders ideal, and to jepordise the health of these works of art for a bit faster growth would not be wise.

As for backyard spawns, not a good idea in general, but if someone is determined to raise them, then cull a lot, and change that water A LOT. Because they will be feeding a lot, water should be changed a lot. No short cuts should be encouraged.

[koicluboftheair]

I'm not sure if comparing illegal use of steroids to growth hormone manipulation in aquaculture is fair, but according to studies such as the one below increased growth rates has been a principle focus of aquaculture research. Yet, maybe it is fair to compare what is done commercially to doping in sports? There is no regulation of it though. Is there?

"Application of gene technology in fish to improve production
efficiency has many potential benefits. Research on GM fish has
primarily focused on producing fish with increased growth rates,
increased temperature tolerance, and improved disease resistance.
Fish have been modified to grow six times faster than normal,
survive in colder climates, and possess natural disease resistance so
important to high-density aquaculture.
Whilst the potential benefits of GM fish are plenty, there are some
associated risks to consider prior to their use in commercial
production. Ecological risks would arise if GM fish escaped from
aquaculture facilities and into the wild."
http://affashop.gov.au/PdfFiles/gm_in_aquaculture.pdf

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCCAPW While it may be interesting, I don't think one should directly apply information and practices of the aquacultureist who is raising fish for food, to the raising of a fish purely for artistic beauty.

Are we sure that is the koi breeder's motto per say? Many sell bulk and I mean really big numbers.

Quote: Food fish are raised quickly, very crowded, and kept by the breeder for the shortest possiable time. He is not concerned about the long term health of the fish, just the quickest time to table, as he should be..

Some would say gh in food fish is a bigger concern considering human consumption than ornamentals.

Quote: Koi on the other hand, are really pets. Ideally you should be able to pass them onto your children, like parrots. The fact that few make it that far, doesn't mean we should not strive for that level of health. Perhaps GH and other means of speeding up growth are not good for the long term health of koi, or any other pet intended to live a long time.

I don't know of any studies on the long term effects of gh on fish health.

Quote: While there may be some breeders who use GH, I don't belive any reputable breeder would do so. Koi are an artisic expresion of the breeders ideal, and to jepordise the health of these works of art for a bit faster growth would not be wise.

Again as essentially aquaculturists I'm not sure the American Koi Breeders or those overseas have agreed not to use gh or other forms of genetic manipulation to increase growth rates.

Quote: As for backyard spawns, not a good idea in general, but if someone is determined to raise them, then cull a lot, and change that water A LOT. Because they will be feeding a lot, water should be changed a lot. No short cuts should be encouraged.

I agree with that as a hobbyist standard. Yet, as with breeders who color up fish for a quick sale that might not should be encouraged either.

[koiczar]

John

I truly hope you're not trying to get this board to become a subservent to Green Peace!? The average hobbyist could care less about what is done in the Aquaculture world as our koi aren't considered for table fodder. Trying to mix the two into a conversation about nishikigoi IMHO is rediculous. Have you ever been to Japan and visited breeder's facilities or is this simply speculation on your part? Even domestic breeders that are trying to increase the quality level of what they produce, I believe, would not be doing this. Using color enhancing foods to brighten the fish up is totally different than trying to beef them up more quickly for better sales. Yes, there are probably a few out there who have considered it, may have/are doing it, but I would like to believe that they are the miniscule majority of the breeders of the world of Nishikigoi.

Mike

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar John I truly hope you're not trying to get this board to become a subservent to Green Peace!? The average hobbyist could care less about what is done in the Aquaculture world as our koi aren't considered for table fodder. Trying to mix the two into a conversation about nishikigoi IMHO is rediculous. Have you ever been to Japan and visited breeder's facilities or is this simply speculation on your part?

Interesting points Mike. I've not asked anyone to be subservent. From the regulatory standpoint commercial koi-breeders are practicing aquaculture. I don’t know how visiting commercial breeders and farms in Japan could be relevant to the science and obvious commercial interest in preventing koi from stunting in crowded breeding facilities? Even the Japanese do not give out all their secrets do they? All this stuff is unregulated and there are no requirements to report it. I merely find the science as applicable to these fish interesting.

Quote: Even domestic breeders that are trying to increase the quality level of what they produce, I believe, would not be doing this. Using color enhancing foods to brighten the fish up is totally different than trying to beef them up more quickly for better sales. Yes, there are probably a few out there who have considered it, may have/are doing it, but I would like to believe that they are the miniscule majority of the breeders of the world of Nishikigoi. Mike

Well again the point might not be to beef them up, but to keep them from becoming stunted in tight quarters by blocking the release of chemicals in koi that evolution designed to inhibit the natural production of gh in less-than-optimum growing conditions. Nothing nepharious really.

[koiczar]

Quote: Originally Posted by koicluboftheair Interesting points Mike. I've not asked anyone to be subservent. From the regulatory standpoint commercial koi-breeders are practicing aquaculture. Trure in the truest sense of the definition but not for the same purposes I don’t know how visiting commercial breeders and farms in Japan could be relevant to the science and obvious commercial interest in preventing koi from stunting in crowded breeding facilities? I asked this question to see if you understood what a breeder's facility and their practices actually are all about (why they do the things they do). Even the Japanese do not give out all their secrets do they? All this stuff is unregulated and there are no requirements to report it .Is there something going on in the aquaculture industry to we should be concerned about? I merely find the science as applicable to these fish interesting. In my opinion, it just sounds more like you're trying to become the Ralph Nader of the aquaculture industry and you're testing the waters here to try to drum up support from us for your next cause!? I would speculate that they (governments) don't think it's an issue. Well, I agree with you that a food source breeder/aquaculturist that uses Gh could be producing some problems within the food chain used for human consumption but that is not the platform that this forum is based upon. If this is happening, the inference to breeding nishikigoi sounds mostly like conjecture on your part. I know, one study showed info based on koi (they couldn't even define the varieties correctly) but that was simply their study. Does that all of a sudden make it a point of suspicion? I don't think so. Well again the point might not be to beef them up, but to keep them from becoming stunted in tight quarters by blocking the release of chemicals in koi that evolution designed to inhibit the natural production of gh in less-than-optimum growing conditions. Nothing nepharious really.

John

Ever heard of Bonsai Nisai? Does that help dispell the theory of the breeders using GH?

Mike

[koicluboftheair]

I understand that for hobbyists associated with clubs and such (of which I'm a member) think of raising koi as an art and cultural, but I don't think that is in conflict with the scientific aspects of the industry, which to use one example of many, "With over 30 years of aquaculture experience, the award-winning Kloubec Koi Farm in Amana, Iowa, is one of the largest koi breeders in the entire United States,"www.kloubeclive.com.

I think there is much to learn from the business end of the hobby where they are producing far more koi for sale than the hobbyist organizations purchase.

[koiczar]

John

Are you speaking of only DOMESTIC koi breeders?

Mike

[koicluboftheair]

It is always easier to speak of what is closest to you, but there are seemingly no rules or regs regarding this issue on a local, state, national, or international basis. I just looked up at the pic in the Koi-Bito banner with all those kuhaku and tonchos and had to ask myself if that is an example of an overcrowded condition. I've seen pics of a few really crowded breeder ponds and just wonder if something of this sort could be of benefit. I'm trying to limit my value judgement on the subject to the end result of whatever proceedures the professional find advantageous in producing quality koi.

[koiczar]

Quote: Originally Posted by koicluboftheair It is always easier to speak of what is closest to you, but there are seemingly no rules or regs regarding this issue on a local, state, national, or international basis. I just looked up at the pic in the Koi-Bito banner with all those kuhaku and tonchos and had to ask myself if that is an example of an overcrowded condition. I've seen pics of a few really crowded breeder ponds and just wonder if something of this sort could be of benefit. I'm trying to limit my value judgement on the subject to the end result of whatever proceedures the professional find advantageous in producing quality koi.

John

Your above statement makes me smile and I have to admit, I find it slightly comical. Do you really think that is what the breeders tanks all look like? These, as I'm sure you can see from the picture, are tosai. The picture was taken to show the kaleidascope of color that is created by them, not the mass overcrowding of fish. The pond itself is many times larger than the picture depicts. The fish are simply gathering at the movement of the photographer thinking they are going to get fed, as is the case in every breeders tosai ponds no matter where you go. It's the nature of the beast.

Also, it is coming on to winter, the fish have been pulled from the mudponds and are now being kept in the greenhouse ponds for their own protection. Crowded? Yes, by our known standards of koikeeping they are, but remember, these are mainly "flow thru" systems so they are not really crowded at all.

Mike