Choosing good sumi on a young fish

[Koimann]

Is the sumi on this sanke good? Left picture was taken in Oct06 and right picture taken 1 week ago.The picture on the right was taken after the koi was moved into another pond for 2 weeks.Is it due to the different pond that affected the sumi?

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by Koimann Is the sumi on this sanke good? Left picture was taken in Oct06 and right picture taken 1 week ago.The picture on the right was taken after the koi was moved into another pond for 2 weeks.Is it due to the different pond that affected the sumi?

With my well water I have the opposite problem as a kohaku developed some sumi . I think that the sumi in my case was there unseen but the well water brought it out . Not one of my fish have lost sumi . Not so the beni but I think that can happen with weak beni in any type of water .
Regards
Eugene

[MikeM]

Koimann: My experience has been that at nisai and older Sumi generally expands/increases, rather than retracting/reducing. But, I have moderately hard water. One of the first "decent" nisai I acquired, however, had a good deal of Sumi excellently positioned in Showa-like fashion, but the fish was definitely Sanke. It was imported from Japan, where it presumably was in softer water than mine. The dealer involved has water softer than mine. Over the course of a year, virtually all the Sumi disappeared. It looked more like a Kohaku with a shimmy or three. After another year, some of the Sumi expanded to make it clearly a Sanke once again, but it never acquired the amount of Sumi needed to be worthwhile. The Sumi was good quality, though not the very best. There just was not enough of it. My point in telling the story is to remind that Sumi behavior varies considerably among bloodlines, which are all mixed up at this point. The Sumi on yours may arise in year 4 or 5 like the old Torazo line, or what you see may be all you've got. Seeing the parent fish and siblings may help you decide about the future of the fish. But, until the future is today, you cannot be 100% certain. The genetic lottery can be frustrating and fun at the same time. We can always enjoy the fish while awaiting that day.

[dick benbow]

Very well explained Mike. I know from long experience with Matsunosuke bloodline that often you see the sumi at tosai, gone at nisai, partially back at sansei and then it either pops back in a year or two or doesn't.

As Ray said earlier in this post, sanke's from a breeder's stand point are the most difficult to get a good one from. So I think since the sumi is the unknown factor you go as Ray suggested with what you can see, good skin? good beni? Good white ground? the rest you trust to luck....

[Koimann]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Koimann: My experience has been that at nisai and older Sumi generally expands/increases, rather than retracting/reducing. But, I have moderately hard water. One of the first "decent" nisai I acquired, however, had a good deal of Sumi excellently positioned in Showa-like fashion, but the fish was definitely Sanke. It was imported from Japan, where it presumably was in softer water than mine. The dealer involved has water softer than mine. Over the course of a year, virtually all the Sumi disappeared. It looked more like a Kohaku with a shimmy or three. After another year, some of the Sumi expanded to make it clearly a Sanke once again, but it never acquired the amount of Sumi needed to be worthwhile. The Sumi was good quality, though not the very best. There just was not enough of it. My point in telling the story is to remind that Sumi behavior varies considerably among bloodlines, which are all mixed up at this point. The Sumi on yours may arise in year 4 or 5 like the old Torazo line, or what you see may be all you've got. Seeing the parent fish and siblings may help you decide about the future of the fish. But, until the future is today, you cannot be 100% certain. The genetic lottery can be frustrating and fun at the same time. We can always enjoy the fish while awaiting that day.

Thank you Mike M for your input.Im keeping my fingers crossed that the sumi will come back.When the sanke was shifted to the other pond,it was a much smaller pond(6000gallons) with 20 other kois.Maybe the water quality was not ideal and overstocked.Although she lost a bit of sumi,her beni and shiroji have improved. Now she is back into the old pond.Will update on her sumi condition again.