bung head, square jaw

[ranskye]

if richard is sure it isnt oxygen then we can look elsewhere for now.
vitamins of some sort, be it unavailable or not present in the water or food maybe the case. foraging for a lot of supplemetal organisms in this pond wouldnt do a fish much good.
AND i do recall rearing fish like steve mentions and not changing water and giving really shitty diets to the fish.
you know how you just give them some powder and nothing else and the water gets rough..the nitrites go up casue theres no bloom to suck it.

it comes flooding back to me now. i remeber my trials with goldfish in tanks at home in the early days..
these little goldfish had white fungus stuff growing under the gills.
i think it grw on the bodies also but i remeber seeing it under gills.
i think i remember my old man scannign one of these fosh to examine what it was growing there. i will see if he has the pic someday.

most of these fish died young.
im talking living 20 pr 30 days max or something..
the survivors where of two types.
1 the ones that werent eaffected at all.
probably the ones cannabilising or something..
and 2 the ones that got infected and survived with the gill problem.



one other big difference is that this pond is plastic lined and only has a little muck on the bottom from the previous crop.
filled with bore water and never recycled effluent water.
i did two near full (about 70 percent)water changes, i noticed the problem definately before the second change.
bad water was the reason for the first change but i cant say for certain if i saw the gill problem during the bad water or slightly after the first change.
which may have ben useful info.
the pond is about 300 thousand litres, it was fed silver perch pellets at about 1.5 kilo twice daily.

i have no water quality results on this pond whatsoever.

these here results were taken from the same type of pond used to grow guppies about 30 metres away, the same start up water same temps same artificial aeration...

this pond was fed about a 3 litre bucket of pollard per day and about 300 grams of powder silver perch starter so its not a lot of use to examine and target the gill problem but this pond was let go fairly foul also so it does show some reference point possibly.
i let this pond foul up without changing the water as i was about to begin a trial on some water treatment product to satisfy some company. this product wasnt used in the koi pond.

heres the results (of a nearby pond).

pH 6.76
turbidity. 50.5 NTU
suspended solids total 60 mg/l
sulphate 25mg/L
chlorophyll a and phaeophytin 0.296 mg/l
cod 396mg/l
bod 220 mg/l
total nitrogen as N 2.2
total phosporus as P 0.56 mg/l
calcium73.92 mg/l
magnesium 104 mg/l
total hardness 612 mg/l
calcium hardness 184mg/l
chromium less than 0.001
manganese 0.248
cadmium 0.002
potasium 24.16
iron 1.882


steve, i think ive seen it debated about the vitamin c deficienty in that bent back disease on the barramundi but i havent checked in to see what the consensus is these days. i think they were going as far as dosing with vitamin c using some water suitable vitamin.
i did also think that that one showed up in the tank culture ones more so but i could be wrong on that.
not uch worry for things in organic outdoor barra a ponds.. but im not sure if these guys see the problem or not.

i have one select fish that came from the bung pond that has a bent back tail upwards and one other i noticed the other day also but i think i see them here and there anyway.

i think that its probably the same problem i saw in those young goldies with a white cottonish growth undere their gills.

[bekko]

Be careful not to fall into that pond. The water is so thick that you might not be able to get back out.

There is a lot to unravel. However, I would focus on water quality and nutrition during the first few weeks. My hunch is that these deformities must develop very early in life, perhaps even in the egg. But, it's just a hunch. Would have to split a group of late fry to clean water and thick water and compare incidence of defromities

-s teveh

[ranskye]

my old man says he dosent remember the scan of the goldfish with the fungus under the raised gills so i cant post that pic sorry.

yep steve thats exactly my description of it when i took that sample.
thick.

a very still and very soupy pond.
im waiting on the results from the tests of the sample two weeks later after using this test product but even that would be hard to put a finger on its usefulness as i did do a top up between then.
i think the product smelt of ammonia nitrate and the other one created bubbles so maybe it was phosphate.
it was some type of prawn pond product but too expensive when you consider a water change costs me not very much.

ive pretty much stopped using inorganic ferts cause it wasnt a complete profile using just DAP and urea and potash.
maybe next year ill get back inot using organic ferts but we seem to do ok just running with the initial blooms from the sand mud bottoms and feeding commercial pellets in the outdoor ponds.
thing is these days i clear out the harvest trench of a lot of mud and the mud from the sand banks falls down next crop and i clear it again so im thinking that one day my blooms will be getting shorter lasting without some additions.

anyone here got a standard organic pond fert regime?

i used to use pollard, cottonseed meal. lucerne hay, as well as the inorganic ones i mentioned.

i got an absolutely cranking bloom and plankton life once from adding koi emulsion to those inorganic ones bit ive near run out of that good fishy stuff.

[karipeters]

When we had Toshio Sakai out for the Seminar a few weeks ago he specifically mentioned that over-crowding causes lack of oxygen and causes the gills to curl out at the edges. He's got a lot of experience, so it is something to consider...good luck!!

[bekko]

-s t e

[ranskye]

thanks all, ill sort it out next time round.
spose its about getting things better than i had at the time..
steve, ive seen my fair share of those poor looking goldies!!
my old man has a koi thats about 30cm long and it appears to be getting a bit better, you can still notice its gills are more open as it breathes but it seems to be growing out of looking really bad like it was when it was younger.

[Eugeneg]

There is a lot to unravel. However, I would focus on water quality and nutrition during the first few weeks. My hunch is that these deformities must develop very early in life, perhaps even in the egg. But, it's just a hunch. Would have to split a group of late fry to clean water and thick water and compare incidence of defromities

I get about 1000 young fish every year from my mud pond and never see deformaties except when there is a early spawn followed by a cold snap . Under such conditions most of the fry die and there is a large number of deformaties in the survivers
Regards
Eugene

[ranskye]

hey you might be right, most of these fish came from an early hatch out and it may be that i hadnt noticed the gill problems until they grew bigger.
i culled off and put them in the pond starting at about 3cm.

for sure that early in the year would mean less live food for them when fry and my ponds tend to not die off from cold much cause they are big bodies of water, having said that i dont see this ussually but then agian this is the first year where i really tried to put a lot of select fish aside.
most came form the first spawn too as they were my nicer breeders.
ussually ill sell most of the fish out as feeders.

ill keep an eye out first spawn next season and keep my water nicer.