Kindai Showa ....

[JasPR]

Eugene, what is your description of a tategoi? What makes this fish a tategoi? JR

[111whalen]

Body excellent...beni...not going stay

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Eugene, what is your description of a tategoi? What makes this fish a tategoi? JR

A tategoi is a fish of the future a breeder has the best idea how it is likely to finish . So if sold by someone like Matt it has great potential if he sold it as a tategoi certainly I would say that he expects the Sumi to improve .
Some fish take up to ten years to finish and a finished fish can only go down hill . It is extremly difficult to judge any fish from a photograph but this one looks good based on my limited experience in raising fish .
Regards
Eugene

[Russell Peters]

[quote=Eugeneg;78626]

Quote: Originally Posted by dinh Here is 17" Nisai Nagashima tategoi kindai showa.... All good, bad, ugly comments are greatly appreciated.... Nice looking fish but it is a tategoi and Matt is not only a great person but a good judge of his own fish you will have to wait and see hope it is going back in mud pond and post another photo next year . It will probably turn out a great fish . Regards Eugene

I am sorry, but I do not understand the reference to Matt, this is NOT one of his Koi.

[JasPR]

I see. Well I think we can leave Matt out of it as this is a conversation about the fish? I'm sure Matt is highly skilled indeed but I doubt he would GUARANTEE this fish ten years from now as a super star!!

Eugene, I think it's fun to say this riddle over and over because it has volumes of wisdom within it's words-- "ALL tategoi are unfinished, but not all unfinished fish are tategoi!"

There is no question that this fish's sumi will finish and look better as the fish matures. But will the beni improve? That is the gamble here in my opinion. And I think the beni might have a chance of 'tightening up' some after it is in concrete for a while but it also looks like it has an equal chance of fracturing.

Now not all beni develops the same, that is for sure. And the breeder knows his fish best. But generally speaking, we want to see immature beni on fish this size- so that it finishes at the same rate as the shiro ground and the sumi pattern. That is THE challenge of showa. Immature beni on a tategoi tends to have certain color tones, deeper colored centers within the plate over each scale and an even-ness of color. Again this fish may still be showing mudpond kiwa and sashi- but I'm a worrier! LOls

There is considerable risk with this fish IMHO and with all due respect to Matt and Dinh as they both have superior eyes.
So time will tell. It will be very interesting to see this fish again in a year.

JR

[MikeM]

I had a Nagashima Shiro Utsuri. Wonderful Sumi, but a poor body. The body on this fish looks pretty good. The Sumi has a long way to go. I do not see any finished Sumi... where it overlies the red is not a good spot for evaluation, particularly in a photo. If you have acquired this fish already, and the Hi fades, wait to see what the Sumi does before moving her on.

[PapaBear]

It is a nice looking fish in terms of body conformation and skin as much as the picture can show, but I just don't see the sumi and beni coming together to create a balanced form. The sashi looks very thin and pinkish like watercolor paint. Was it Nagashima who defined it as tategoi, or the dealer/broker?

[HEADACHE6]

I'm sorry , But I don't see it ? This Showa would'nt get a second look from me . I think it's going to lose most of it's Hi , and there lie's the problem . I could see some of the Hi hanging around so the owner will have a poor Showa or Shiro .

[Richard Rombold]

Interesting discussion. It would be great to see this fish again in a year. I appreciate JR's comments concerning the Hi, but this is still a beautiful fish. Thanks Dinh for giving us something worth thinking about.

[MikeM]

Will some of the Hi hang around? ....Don't know. But if it does hang around, for how long? Some may recall the Torazo Showa I got as part of a club group purchase a couple of years ago, that quickly had most of the Hi fade, leaving a few "puke orange" splotches. I named her "Ugly". She went to Naples to live in a huge pond (35,000 gal, I think it was) with a dozen longfins. Her new owner reportedly thought she was wonderful. The fellow who took Ugly to give to the pondowner updated me at CFKS. Over the past year Ugly has lost the remnants of Hi. The Sumi has not come up and I'm told it does not look like high quality Sumi, but at this point, who knows what the future holds? The only thing certain is that Ugly is a Shiro Utsuri in a pond of longfins.