Is Sumi with Marusome Kiwa Unique to Matsunosuke?

[Richard Rombold]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee Ya got lots and lots of wonderful fish. Sanke ain't my cup of tea but it doesn't matter at this size anyway... You want a Bare-Knuckled critique... Your fry seem very healthy, bright, and have enormous potential. I agree with Sangreaal's choice of the Bekko's. Other than that they are Pipsqueaks...given the opportunity I would be willing to purchase a bunch and grow them on as they do hold immense potential.... There that is all anyone can say...they have potential and look like they were raised well. I am impressed with what was outside the water...you've got some really nice systems for dealing with fish..I'd like to see more of that stuff... and older fish...INDIVIDUAL older fish..or at least narrow it down to 3-6 of em and ask us to rate em ...

Thanks Luke,

Point well taken. These fish hatched late August and we had an unusually cold October this year. They haven't had much of a chance to grow. However, with the Spring hatch growth was improved but could be better. I am slowly making the adjustments at the farm to turn the emphasis away from wholesale and more to quality larger fish. The technique and facilities will need to improve before I can match Japanese growth rates. I expect to make up a lot of ground in February, March and April with our warmer weather.

Richard

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold Russ, I have been trying to get my head around this sumi too. It's thick, thick, thick, but so thick that there is no dimension to it. Take the fish out of the water and you can see how it's lacquer and silky, but in the water it's simply the absence of light. These being young fish means a lot can change, but the few examples of this sumi that cropped up last year are stellar at two years and improving. I'll try to get some uncompressed, but downsized images up later tonight. By the way, tank temps hit 43F this morning so I pulled the plug on all the tategoi and returned them to their warmer ponds. Richard

Smart move, keep me posted.

[Richard Rombold]

Here are two quick shots that I sized down to fit into the forum, it still may drag a bit for some to view. In the first photo note the sheen on the sanke in the lower portion of the photo. The light has to hit the fish just right to see it. Also look at how incredibly deep the pigment is on all the fish. Even as young as these fish are they show tremendous complexity. These are very intricate patterns that I selected for. In many case too much so, and I expect another severe cull later in the Spring. However, there are too many unknowns that I am working with, and this is as far as I dared take it until they develop further.





In this photo we were not so lucky as to catch the light just right. I think Marie shows some of the bekko well, but it doesn't show up well here. Nor does the pearl scale on the small kohaku.

[luke frisbee]

Richard,
I can tell ya that as soon as MikeM sees those dot headed Bekkos his eyebrows are gonna go up, and he's gonna be looking..
you didn't mean to to that did ya?
No not you...an Honorable koi Breeder/Dealler...it never crossed your mind

So Mike,
Close huh...perfect dot

personally that tancho bekko cannot be improved upon unless it is in my care.

[PapaBear]

Really impressive to see how thick the Sumi is at this age, and the scale definition already becoming distinctly "marusome" is a bit surprising. I wouldn't have guessed that level of refinement to emerge at this size. Did your previous fry with this trait show this at such a small size too, or was it just the Sumi quality that originally caught your eye?

[MikeM]

... two of them, at 3pm and 6pm in lower center. Simple steps or many steps?... I hope they hold the sumi maruten as they grow. A bit larger maruten is perhaps needed when/if they grow past 26".

After you find your first pick, Richard, we'll need to talk about the 'almosts'.

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM ... two of them, at 3pm and 6pm in lower center. Simple steps or many steps?... I hope they hold the sumi maruten as they grow. A bit larger maruten is perhaps needed when/if they grow past 26". After you find your first pick, Richard, we'll need to talk about the 'almosts'.

Can we share shipping?

[Richard Rombold]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear Really impressive to see how thick the Sumi is at this age, and the scale definition already becoming distinctly "marusome" is a bit surprising. I wouldn't have guessed that level of refinement to emerge at this size. Did your previous fry with this trait show this at such a small size too, or was it just the Sumi quality that originally caught your eye?

Larry,

I have three generations of sanke females that all exhibit this trait. It wasn't until I acquired some examples of Toshio Sakai's work that I had anything to truly compare to my own. Having some examples of modern day Japanese koi has allowed me to more accurately guide my own breeding. So, it was simply the quality of the sumi that I noticed and not the kiwa. In this year's spawns I can see that each generation of sanke female continues to amplify the sumi upon the previous. The spawn that you are seeing here is the first chance I have had to cross daughter back to father. It is promising and I intend to continue down this path until the sumi is firmly established (fingers crossed). At some point in the not too distant future I will cross back out to Japanese stock to add vigor, size and improved beni to the line. In the example fish I posted earlier in this thread the marusome kiwa was evident at 8 months. I don't have any earlier photos that show enough detail to say anymore than that.

Richard

[Richard Rombold]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM ... two of them, at 3pm and 6pm in lower center. Simple steps or many steps?... I hope they hold the sumi maruten as they grow. A bit larger maruten is perhaps needed when/if they grow past 26". After you find your first pick, Richard, we'll need to talk about the 'almosts'.

Mike,

My first picks are going to be used for an attempt to establish a separate bekko bloodline along the lines we have talked about. I don't know if it can be done, but I am going to try. The bekkos need to be resurrected and just maybe this sumi/shiroji quality can carry them back to popularity.

Side note: My priority for the best fish goes first to brood stock and then to good people with good ponds. I'd love to get you a good tancho bekko for your pond, but by my reckoning I'm at least a couple of years away from producing good fish. I told Russ last year that it would be three to five years before we could produce koi on par with the Japanese. That still sounds about right.

Richard

[MikeM]

Having a purpose-bred Bekko line is unique in itself. After so many generations of culling Bekko and refining for lasting red pigment, I think you have a bit of a challenge in breeding the red out in the early generations, rather like Hi sneaking into Shiro Utsuri. I'd guess the third generation would show a high percentage of non-red. I'm curious how that turns out.

If the body can be kept to a strong, Sanke-type body, Bekko with lacquer sumi will be beautiful. It would be so much easier to improve the bodies of Shiro Utsuri if a refined Bekko line existed. The two could benefit each other ... 20, 30 years from now?