Is Sumi with Marusome Kiwa Unique to Matsunosuke?

[Russell Peters]

Toshio Sakai has Sanke with his "New Type Sumi" as well.

[Koimann]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters Toshio Sakai has Sanke with his "New Type Sumi" as well.

Hi Russell,
Can you show us some pictures?

[PapaBear]

Richard,
Excellent closeups of both fish. They both appear to have the same Sumi characteristics (outstanding) but slightly different beni. I'm afraid you're just gonna have to give us a few more clues as to lineage on them though

Russ,
Can you toss up a few more closeups from the promised land for us to get a clearer idea of Sakai's progress so we can make some comparisons? I'm lovin' it

[cppond]

Lord knows I am not afraid to look foolish, so I would say matsunosuke bloodline based on body type and sumi. . . . or, not.

[dick benbow]

just a little background for understanding.....

Toshio's older brother inherited the matsunosuke establishment started by their father. Toshio journeyed south from Niigata to establish his operation
in a hot springs area known for it's wonderful fruit production. There he plied his dream to develop the bloodline his father started. It was Toshio that bred magoi into it and it was toshio that also created the marusome scale color for both red and black. This was done in Isawa. While the brothers share fish, you really have to understand that Toshio is the visionist that has made the strives forward.

That said Richard, I'm not sure I can tell you which farm the koi picturerd was bred on....I just know that without Toshio's quest for the best, none of us would be looking at this artistically creative result. Last time I was in Mushigame at the older brother's establishment, he had the darker blue tubs.
But toshio breeds many tosai and then moves them up to Niigata to raise in the mudponds there. Not all are returned to winter in Isawa.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Koimann Hi Russell, Can you show us some pictures?

Hi Koimann,

The pictures Richard has posted are of the "New Type Sumi" on Sanke. They are from Isawa. I hope that helps.

Russ

[Richard Rombold]

Actually, the fish pictured is a domestic sanke bred from 2nd generation ginbei and a male sanke I picked up in '97 from Kaz Takeda (Suda). It is a non-matsunosuke koi. It's an isolated incidence and not a planned outcome. This is how Toshio's new sumi may have began. A single fish carrying some of the characteristics he wanted to see in his new vision. The real chore would then be to take this F1 generation and breed it until you had established a stable outcome.

My first job as a fisheries biologist was at a goldfish farm where I bred fancy goldfish and feeders. I no longer breed the fancy goldfish, but I still carry on with the feeders. With feeders you see millions of fish every year, and if you look closely enough you will see all the common mutations that eventually would lead to Ryukin, Pearlscale, Oranda, Telescope... The same is true with koi. You breed enough fish and you will see the threads of possible directions you may want to take your fish. Even in a common domestic koi which you might find in a chain store, you could see something special if you are looking and see the fish for what it is. That's my point.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold Actually, the fish pictured is a domestic sanke bred from 2nd generation ginbei and a male sanke I picked up in '97 from Kaz Takeda (Suda). It is a non-matsunosuke koi. It's an isolated incidence and not a planned outcome. This is how Toshio's new sumi may have began. A single fish carrying some of the characteristics he wanted to see in his new vision. The real chore would then be to take this F1 generation and breed it until you had established a stable outcome. My first job as a fisheries biologist was at a goldfish farm where I bred fancy goldfish and feeders. I no longer breed the fancy goldfish, but I still carry on with the feeders. With feeders you see millions of fish every year, and if you look closely enough you will see all the common mutations that eventually would lead to Ryukin, Pearlscale, Oranda, Telescope... The same is true with koi. You breed enough fish and you will see the threads of possible directions you may want to take your fish. Even in a common domestic koi which you might find in a chain store, you could see something special if you are looking and see the fish for what it is. That's my point.

Oops, my bad, it looked fomiliar. Isn't the first picture a Sakai Sanke?

[Richard Rombold]

No bad Russ! Otherwise you miss the point of the thread. The first picture is your sanke. The second fish is mine. You can't touch the quality of the modern matsunosuke blood line, but there are demerits. One being their frailty. If you look closely at the picture of the first fish I think you can see it's snapped pectoral fin. I've never seen that before. Also the modern matsunosuke are just softer bodied. My fish feel firm and muscular to the touch while the matsunosuke are soft. A sanke such as the one I featured here could be useful as a cross to add vigor to the bloodline without having to cross back to wild type. It took four generations of inbreeding after crossing to magoi before his new lines became useful again. It's worth investigating at the least.

Here is the fish in it's entirety. Easy to over look isn't it.

[PapaBear]

(I'm wearing a self satisfied grin for knowing the beni on one was from one of Richards )
So you now have a new Matsunosuke type and a similar sumi trait from a completly unique genepool? That does make for some interesting possibilities down the road
You mentioned that the one you bred is from Ginbei and Suda parent stock. Was it a true "one-off" from the spawn, or where there others that simply didn't make the cut? Also, at what age/stage of development was this sumi trait visible?