Is Sumi with Marusome Kiwa Unique to Matsunosuke?

[dick benbow]

One of the things Richard, that always imnpressed me about Toshio was the amount of genetics he had at his bec and call. he bred many color varieties
into his matsunosuke and magoi bloodline and say if you wanted a shusui or kujaku he could get you one by going to neighboring farmers that he had
presented with parents. I sure he spotted the beni marusome early but actually it was the sumi that needed to be genetically stabilized.

Glad you got out of the goldfish! thanks for having fun on this thread, and making others aware of how things work. The only other exposure I had to genetics other than koi has been racing pigeons. You and i will discuss that
when we meet, because I'm positive their is something that needs to be addressed.

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold ....With feeders you see millions of fish every year, and if you look closely enough you will see all the common mutations that eventually would lead to Ryukin, Pearlscale, Oranda, Telescope... The same is true with koi. You breed enough fish and you will see the threads of possible directions you may want to take your fish. Even in a common domestic koi which you might find in a chain store, you could see something special if you are looking and see the fish for what it is. That's my point.

I think that is why the Japanese breeders, when asked how they choose their breeder pairings often give the shortest, sweetest answer: Pretty fish to pretty fish.

In the last analysis, it really does boil down to this haiku-esque simplicity once the long answer is done and over....

Marie

[Richard Rombold]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow One of the things Richard, that always imnpressed me about Toshio was the amount of genetics he had at his bec and call.

Hello Dick,

Oh what I would give to be able to work amongst so much beauty as he has access to and under his own roof. I have thought of this as well. The breeders all seem welcome at each other's farm, and I sense it is this need to keep access open to possible parent stock which is the prime motivator. The kids and the farm keep me firmly planted in Fresno, but if I ever get a chance to slip over to Japan I'll probably wet myself.

[Richard Rombold]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear (I'm wearing a self satisfied grin for knowing the beni on one was from one of Richards ) So you now have a new Matsunosuke type and a similar sumi trait from a completly unique genepool? That does make for some interesting possibilities down the road You mentioned that the one you bred is from Ginbei and Suda parent stock. Was it a true "one-off" from the spawn, or where there others that simply didn't make the cut? Also, at what age/stage of development was this sumi trait visible?

Hello Larry,

The marusome sumi is a "one-off". One of the things I have been working on is incorporating the Jinbei stability with the glossy tsuya sumi this Suda male possessed. Normally, early lacquer like sumi is surface sumi and breaks up in a few years. This Suda male had a patch of stable tsuya sumi on its shoulder and I wanted to work with it. This fish was an off-shoot of that pairing. I did not notice the marusome sumi at the time I passed it on for another year's growth. It just had stunning sumi is all that I remember, and I wanted to watch it. It may have been present. I assumed the sumi would begin to break up and not continue to consolidate as it has. I'll grow her another year and then evaluate. It's probably just academic, but there is an outside chance She could be useful.

The best part of running auctions, and it may be the only part, is that it forces me to photograph my fish. Another comment I want to make about this koi is it's scales. Did anyone else notice that they are finer than what you normally see on my fish. I have noticed this with Toshio's new sumi as well. I was wondering if he had crossed with a doitsu to come up with his new sumi. It may be that this particular genetic trait and scale type go hand in hand.

[PapaBear]

One of the things I thought noteworthy when viewing the closeups is the Sashi. It seems to pretty consistently run 1-2 scales deep both under the beni and the shiroji. That would seem to me to indicate a great deal of underlying sumi strength long term.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear One of the things I thought noteworthy when viewing the closeups is the Sashi. It seems to pretty consistently run 1-2 scales deep both under the beni and the shiroji. That would seem to me to indicate a great deal of underlying sumi strength long term.

Yes Larry, you are right on the money with that assumption.

Russ

[Richard Rombold]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Richard: The maruzome kiwa-type Sumi seems to be a new development in terms of "fixing" it. However, I think you will find many "pseudo-maruzome" examples in particular stages of Sumi development in the Utsuri group and occasionally in Sanke. The accomplishment of Sakai is to get lacquer black of great intensity, and it happens to be linked to the maruzome-type kiwa as occurs with the Beni in so many of his fish. I am not so sure that every example is the real thing, as opposed to a moment in time.

Maybe we could get Mike or JR to give us their opinions on the strength of the sumi on my girl next door?

[MikeM]

??? But you've seen it in person. You tell us.


BTW, I find it interesting that the edge of each black scale is gray in the photo. This highlights each scale, giving a raised effect not normally shown in photos. I've not seen this on my own fish. I'm going to be looking for it.

[MikeM]

There is interesting Sumi on a Showa posted by Mojo in another thread. I've borrowed it, since it seems to be showing maruzome sumi, the transient kind perhaps. Notice that there a couple of scales with a gray edge, but more obvious/wider than on Richard's Sanke. On the Showa it appears to be simply the Sumi being in the process of consolidating. On the Sanke the gray edging is very regular and consistent. Not the same thing, I don't think. But, interesting comparison of scales.

[Richard Rombold]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM ??? But you've seen it in person. You tell us. BTW, I find it interesting that the edge of each black scale is gray in the photo. This highlights each scale, giving a raised effect not normally shown in photos. I've not seen this on my own fish. I'm going to be looking for it.

From where I stand this sumi looks strong and deep. The white fringes on the scale I would associate with immaturity. I'll give her a full year's worth of growth in a pond and then we can reevaluate.