Is Sumi with Marusome Kiwa Unique to Matsunosuke?

[PapaBear]

Looking back at the tight closeups I get the impression of young fukurin formation being the source of the "greying" effect. More light refraction being shown rather than color. If you look closely at he first two photos you can see the same thing on both sumi and beni.

[MikeM]

This is an example of the challenge of looking at a photo and trying to draw conclusions about the fish.

Richard: I'm not suggesting that the edge of the scales (assuming I'm looking at correctly) indicates a problem with the Sumi. I just find it curious because it is something new to me. Maybe I've seen fish with the same characteristic, but not realized it. Photos can be a challenge, but they can also let you see things that the eye normally does not pick-up. Larry's reference to the edges of the red scales makes me think of how Matsunosuke Beni can give a golden edge to the red scales when the Beni is immature. ....that leads me to all sorts of speculation about the gray/white edge to the Sumi scales! The Showa I "borrowed" clearly has developing Sumi and it seems obvious that the scales with a gray edge are improving. If I had to guess, I'd say the same is true of the Sumi on your fish. Still, what is fascinating to me is the evenness of that edge and the uniformity. If it is real and not "photo magic", I really, really, really want to know what happens! Wouldn't it be wonderful if it turns out to be a trait that allows reliable prediction of future development? I'm glad your fish is in your hands where it can be watched and grown in the mud.

[Richard Rombold]

I think Larry hit the nail on the head with his reference to developing fukurin. It will be learning experience for all of us to see where this leads and maybe future side by side comparisons with the real thing.

[xiaohuang7]

just a little addition, i have a 3-yr old marudo sanke with kiwa-sumi. awesome sumi, but male and declining beni... oh well.

john

[Richard Rombold]

Hey John, we love seeing photos. The closer the better.

[koiczar]

Hey John

Nice to see you post again. Enjoyed seeing you at Gardena. BTW, thanks for the tour of that bonsai nursery. Wish there were one or two up this way that I could visit occasionally. Then again, I mught just forget about the koi-I love bonsai just as much.

Mike

[MikeM]

Richard: I've been checking sumi scales! I am now seeing the thin gray/whitish edge on the individual scales of a number of fish. It can be very thin, and much easier to see in photos. I am mostly seeing it on Utsuri/Showa, but not all of them and not exclusively on these types. Brady Brandwood has posted a photo of a Magoi-Kohaku cross on NI. It has Utsuri characteristics. Check the edges of the sumi scales. Where the light is right, you'll see a very fine light edge, but if you are not looking for it you"ll not notice at all.

...BTW, I'm not referring to the "kage" scales on the Brady fish, but individual scales within the solid black area. Gotta look close to see it.

[Richard Rombold]

Here is an updated photo after a few months in the mud. I had to bring her to the tanks when culling this pond. She apparently had become injured during a previous seine pull, and her whole side and head were engulfed in a massive bacterial infection. I was lucky to save her. The sumi is something special and the shiroji as well. The beni is heavier and deeper than expected, but well you can see it's a little on the wild side. There are very good elements present in her genetics that make her worth holding onto for future pairings. The goal would be to extract the sumi and improve the beni.

Before



After

[PapaBear]

This is an interesting study. It isn't easy comparing the two photo's, but it is really amazing to see that the beni and sumi have both expanded to a larger number of scales and maintained the crisp clean edge. I'm glad you were able to clear the infection up, because preserving the genetic potential in this girl ought to be worth a lot down the road.
Whats the size on her before and after?

[JasPR]

NICE fish. Hard to believe it is domestic ( that is a compliment)


I'm not sure about the original question ? Maruzome as a beni trait is common. Maruzome as a sumi trait is uncommon. The reason for this is maruzome is a description of a type of kiwa or how and the color plate ends.

Since beni cells form and cluster differently than sumi cells, it is unusual to see SANKE sumi fill an entire scale surface. Usually the nature of SANKE sumi is to from angular blocks or dense almost mole-like spots.
The use of and mixture of sanke/showa sumi is changing that nature however. We are beginning to see sanke with showa sumi traits and visa versa. The key here is the lose or migration away from defined dorsal 'stepping stones' and towards a wrapped sumi coming from the belly area. The torazo and Jimbei lines were perhaps the strongest promoters of dorsal stepping stone styles- either deep black holes or tiger stripes but confined to the back of the koi. The failures were the fish with heavy sumi in the peduncle and on the head.
Today we see the wrap of sumi emerging as showa style even in sanke. It is a wrapped sumi genetics and culling efforts allow for an impression of dorsal orientation. Along with this look comes other showa like traits such as maruzome sumi. At least that is my impression on the subject. JR