Hey Judges does size really matter.

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jimbo In an English style show if by example a size range is 12 to 16 inches how much advantge or dis advatge would a 12 in. fish have compared to a 15in. fish. If the finnish and pattern are equal?

Size matters only when they are being benched. I have seen fish of higher quality, beat another fish larger than them, several times. Quality always prevails, and one show verses another show is very hard to compare, differrent fish, different size ranges, and of course different judges.

[Danjols]

So what is the direction of judging?

As I said above, I understand criteria of ZNA and AKCA and really don't have an argument one way or another, judges give of themselves and do their very best.

Sharon and I have shown at several different venues (koi shows), we listen to koi kichi talk as to which one will win. Often more times than not we are wrong, for the judges bring their knowledge and viewpoint to the table at each show.

Judging is still a human decision, nothing magic about it! We have witnessed many a discussion between judges during their judging exercise where each judge will support his or her opinion. I suppose that is why we have a head judge so the discussions will end and move on to another class and size.

Dan

[JasPR]

That's just not right Dan.

SIZE is a catch all term. Length?

The reason koi are placed in sizes is to make competition fairer. This is not because the big fish always wins! It is because a koi show is a competition between fish of different ages. Small fish are judged against a different scale and standard than medium fish or large fish. Put another way, koi are judged differently depending on whether they are fry, young, pre-adult, adult and mature adult.
WITHIN any of these groupings, we have comformation competition considerations. In the small sizes, a male confirmation is perfectly acceptable. So the fact that a fish is slimmer than another in the small sizes does not put it out of the running. As long as 'thin' is still well within the framework of good male conformation.

It does sound nice to say a judge can go down a few sizes to award GC to the 'best' fish in a show. But that would be a horrible mistake if that meant the judge was crossing the line between mature adult and say, preadult.

It is true that 'large' is rare and often a sign of quality genetics. But a big fish should not win a show because it was big. Otherwise we could all be buying chagoi and be done with it!
Likewise, a koi should not win the entire show because it has great quality but is not mature yet ( you can insert 'large' here). That is not the description of a GC.

A place for everything and everything in it's place.



JR ( alive and kick'n, thanks)

JR

[Danjols]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR That's just not right Dan. SIZE is a catch all term. Length? The reason koi are placed in sizes is to make competition fairer. This is not because the big fish always wins! It is because a koi show is a competition between fish of different ages. Small fish are judged against a different scale and standard than medium fish or large fish. Put another way, koi are judged differently depending on whether they are fry, young, pre-adult, adult and mature adult. WITHIN any of these groupings, we have comformation competition considerations. In the small sizes, a male confirmation is perfectly acceptable. So the fact that a fish is slimmer than another in the small sizes does not put it out of the running. As long as 'thin' is still well within the framework of good male conformation. It does sound nice to say a judge can go down a few sizes to award GC to the 'best' fish in a show. But that would be a horrible mistake if that meant the judge was crossing the line between mature adult and say, preadult. It is true that 'large' is rare and often a sign of quality genetics. But a big fish should not win a show because it was big. Otherwise we could all be buying chagoi and be done with it! Likewise, a koi should not win the entire show because it has great quality but is not mature yet ( you can insert 'large' here). That is not the description of a GC. A place for everything and everything in it's place. JR ( alive and kick'n, thanks) JR

JR, nice to hear from you!

I'm not suggesting all judges or shows should change any criteria for judging. Also, I'm not suggesting any Judge to any show I have attended has stepped out of bounds or crossed the line.

My hats off to all judges that take on the responsibility of our hobby through judging these beautiful creatures at all shows. However, judging does become subjective for that is how we can all learn. If we all agreed, gosh there would be no need for a judge!

I'm pretty sure I was talking about Gosanke, but I agree, a large Chagoi does fit your argument or point of view of large (size).

Later------Dan

[JasPR]

Hi Dan, nice to hear from you as well.

Somehow things get confused in the beginning and then time and inerta make things more or less- permanent.

" In The Beginning--" ( Love that biblical tone , do you?)

The Jumbo award is really the award for the largest fish in the show. Under ZNA rules however it is the largest, best fish in the show. So even that award is not guaranteed to the longest fish.
When in Holland one year judging with an all Japanese team ( one Shinkokai and one ZNA certified) we were assigned the Jumbo award judging. There was a GIANT mamma San Kohaku, a more giant Kigoi and a super giant karasu magoi type.
The Japanese head judge asked the ZNA judges opinion. He chose the kigoi. The head judge then asked me my choice, at a moment when our interpreter was away helping another tream communicate. So I pointed at the kigoi and said " kigoi---- nishikigoi" . The Judge nodded yes. I then pointed to the magoi and said " magoi----- sashimi !!!" He cracked up and we all agreed that the kigoi was the best largest koi ( although not the biggest koi). The large kohaku, by the way, was not carried in the running for GC, because although largest of the gosanke , she was too old and down to compete with the hotter gosanke in her size range ( Holland always brings out at least three or four hard chargers for that GC award).