Omosako Shiro Utsuri - Pick one

[koiczar]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond All things being equal, females are preferable to males. Are all things equal here? For those that selected C, if A was a female, would you still pick C? Presumably, females are selected because they can attain better size and conformation. If true, is C likely to achieve substantial size given its slow start? If not, is C still preferable? Setting aside the examples given in this thread, as a general proposition, is a mediocre female preferable to a very good male?

This depends on the hobbyist's pond size and what they're looking for from the koi. If it cam down to a mediocre female over a male, I would just pass on both. I don't want males and I don't want mediocre females. Just my preference. My pond is 10,000 gal. so females do well.

Mike

[MikeM]

I think "A" and "C" are both nice fish. The photo gives "A" a grand look, and the sumi has a long way to go. I believe it will continue improving. If I had the sense that "A" was female, I would select it over "C" as much because of the greater size at the same age as the strong conformation. But, I believe "A" is male and "C" is female. I would not assume, however, that "C" will be a smaller fish when mature. Females are often smaller than males when tosai. Also, much of the size as tosai has to do with the pond conditions where they were raised. A 1" koi may not get as much food as its bigger 1.25" sibling. If the food supply is limited, over the course of a summer there can be substantial differences in size develop due to the constant competition. When grown in an environment where food is plentiful, the smaller one can catch up with, or surpass, the larger sibling. It is also difficult to evaluate conformation in small tosai. I think the breeder and an experienced eye can do some pretty good guessing, but I think it depends on how well developed the tosai has become in one season.

[Super Kindai]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond All things being equal, females are preferable to males. Are all things equal here? For those that selected C, if A was a female, would you still pick C? Presumably, females are selected because they can attain better size and conformation. If true, is C likely to achieve substantial size given its slow start? If not, is C still preferable? Setting aside the examples given in this thread, as a general proposition, is a mediocre female preferable to a very good male?

Especially quality of shiroji is so important for Shiro Uturi variety and it is quite difference between males and females...

[koilvr]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar Just because this is the offspring of a particular fish does not automatically validate it's quality. Erns I agree with Russ, from the picture (which is not a good angle) I would wager a GUESS that it is female. Mike

Reason I say so is because in my eyes the sumi displays the same characteristic as Musashi i.e a peppery one (my own terms) : one that develop from the outside to inside, one that consolidate lots of tiny freckels into a block of sumi later. this is different from say Shiro C which seems to have a sumi that is developed fron the inside to outside just like a typical showa. I will assume we have a better chance if having a tosai that display traits that imitate the way its oyagoi develop, off-course if we think the oyagoi is great and we want the offspring to be like the oyagoi.

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond All things being equal, females are preferable to males.

Depends. That is a value judgement which may or may not hold true for an individual hobbyist, pond or situation.

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond Are all things equal here?

Obviously not.

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond For those that selected C, if A was a female, would you still pick C?

A wouldn't 'be' A if it was female.

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond Presumably, females are selected because they can attain better size and conformation.

That is only one of several reasons why a hobbyist might make a selection.

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond If true, is C likely to achieve substantial size given its slow start?

Races are not won based on the start, but rather upon the finish.

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond If not, is C still preferable?

Depends. (See above)

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond Setting aside the examples given in this thread, as a general proposition, is a mediocre female preferable to a very good male?

Depends. (See above)

[cppond]

At what age or size do females develop the advantage over males in shows. I know there is not an exact moment or size, but what is the point at which females tend to start to out perform males in shows?

[Ronin-Koi]

All, Thank you for the very good feedback. I posted this similar thread on a couple of boards. Here is a summary as far as the collective opinions that have been posted, along with people's votes. The bottom line is that by far, A and C are viewed as being superior to B. There is a division in the ranks as far as whether A or C is better. C ended up pulling ahead in the voting with 18 votes compared to 13 for A, compared to 1 for B. I should mention that there were two votes for NONE. Very good comments from everyone. THANKS!!

- Wayne, had decided not to go with B.

[KoiCop]

No, thank you Wayne.

This has been a fun learning thread and I hope eveyone enjoyed it as much as I have.

[cppond]

I find this very interesting, too. I am starting to wonder if we are allowing sex to trump our choices in selecting from a group of koi where it won't make a fundamental difference.

Would anyone change their mind about choice C if you "knew" it was likely to finish in 1 year and A was likely to finish in 2?

Hate to be a nag here, but I am trying to learn about selection and I am wondering if we are applying the principle of female supremacy in a situation where it does not have practical application.

[Super Kindai]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond At what age or size do females develop the advantage over males in shows. I know there is not an exact moment or size, but what is the point at which females tend to start to out perform males in shows?

When female fish is ready for spawn, usually 3-4 years old. let's see...60cm(24") over, it starts to showing a beauty.........